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Need Help with Narrating
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Hi there!
I am starting homeschooling, for the time being, mostly because my just turned 8 boy is not thriving. His twin sister is doing well. I have not liked PS approach at all, horrified by the first year classroom where they had a big “tree” on the wall, and each branch represented a higher number of words read per minute. Kids names were arranged for all to see, the fastest readers on the top and so forth.
I love Charlotte Mason– an angel (just mean that metaphorically).
Have been doing narration for a short while now. My boy seems like about a two to three year old. Of course, this is just a thought, but he literally can only come up with a few broken phrases for what he hears. Mostly nothing to do with the main point and forget about order of events. The examples in many CM books I read show far, far more among far younger kids.
The advice I hear on forums to start with Aesop for Children won’t work for me: he can’t narrate from even the shortest one.
The advice to start with very small chunks so far is not great because the small chunks he can remember and parrot back, resulting in just rote memory games.
So far, the only thing that seems to work is a more TWTM classical approach with pointed questions, which at least gets him processing. But, I really do believe in CM very deeply (I am an educator, actually) and want to get “pure” as soon as possible with him. This is not because I am a nuts and bolts guy who always follows directions. It has to do with a deep faith in CM’s insights.
So, can anyone suggest how I might approach this problem? I have read everything online and downloadable (cant afford books sent to where I am half way round the world).
Thanks so much!
Alan
Hi Alan,
Relax. Narration is a very difficult skill to learn and your son is very new to it. My 7 year old has been working on Narration since September and it’s still difficult to get more than a simple sentence out of him.
Have you tried asking him to draw something from the story as a narration? This can be helpful in that you can then ask him to tell you about his picture and write down what he tells you about the picture under it.
Try varying your questions so you aren’t just saying “tell me what you remember”. You can also say “Why do you think the ______________ did (or didn’t do) __________________?” or “Have you ever (done, felt or seen) anything like what is happening in the story?” “What do you think will happen next?” You will end up getting more of an opinion than a re-telling, but you will learn if he’s been paying attention and help him to relate what you are reading to his own life. You could also say “Tell me three things you just learned about _____________.”
Narration cubes also help with my boys. You can print one off the internet or create your own. The idea is that you take turns rolling the cube and answering the question. It might be as simple as “name the characters in the story.” or “Name the problem in the story and how it was solved.” I recommend having a different cube for fiction and non-fiction as you will not always have the same elements in both types of readings.
You might also try modeling narration for him. Some times people will mix up details a bit or say something silly so their child corrects them and tells what really happened.
Some people ask their child to tell the story back to a puppet or teddy bear.
I don’t know how CM it would be, but if you made a few drawings or three or four pictures to go with a story and then allowed your son to put them in order and use them as prompts to tell back the story, it might help just to get him talking.
Recognize that narration does take time to learn to do well. You have lots of time. He will develope the skill over time as he learns to pay better attention and understands what you are looking for in a response.
Here’s a helpful link.
http://simplycharlottemason.com/timesavers/narration/
Check out the narration bookmarks, too.
http://simplycharlottemason.com/timesavers/bookmarks/
Becca<><
I’ve only taught one child to narrate so far, but what worked best for us was to team narrate. This let me give examples for my DD about what it meant to narrate, as well as to let her make an attempt at doing it herself. Anytime my DD got stuck, I’d add in a few words to get her thinking again. We also started with simple stories, like Red Riding Hood, Goldilocks, Little Red Hen. I got picture book versions from the library.
So, for example, Goldilocks might go like this:
Me: There were three bears who wanted to eat some oatmeal, but they had a problem. (pause, with an expectant look)
DD: It was too hot.
Me: So?
DD: They went for a walk.
Me: Then a little girl came along. (pause. If necessary, ask a question) What did she do?
DD: She walked right into the house and ate the oatmeal.
Me: All at once?
DD: No, she tried the big bowl, but it was too hot. And the medium bowl was too cold, but the Baby Bear’s bowl was just right.
Me: So she ate it all up. And then…. (pause)
DD: She wanted to sit down.
Me: She looked around and saw… (pause)
And so on. Any time DD stopped, I’d give just enough to get her rolling again. We did that for many stories, including the first several Aesop’s Fables. Gradually I could back off and just let her go. On longer passages I still throw in a few words just to keep her on track or to draw out a bit more.
Another idea would be to actually act out the story. You could take turns. One story you be the narrator and have your child act it out, or use puppets to act it out. The next story the child can be the narrator. As the “actor” you can use dialogue to give them hints if they get stuck.
The picture idea also works well for us. I let my DD draw a picture as I read the story, and then she is able to give much more detailed narrations by looking at her picture. She is also the type of child who actually pays better attention when her hands are busy, so drawing serves two purposes. If the story has pictures, you could also use those to help the child remember the sequence of events.
Narration is definitely a skill that takes a while to develop. Start small, model what narration is, and assist along the way until they get it.
Joanne
Thanks so much. Those are all really great ideas. I think there is no choice but to implement them.
I think it is probably necessary to guide and coach out the narrations, but I have notice that breaking it down into chunks winds up being parroting and memorization, rather than real processing. But, maybe it can become something more after a few months. What do you think? Do you know what I mean when I say I regret doing this kind of coaching, and how it veers off from the beautiful message a bit of CM?
That being said, I am also struck by an apparent contradiction between the introducing narration and CM’s principle to expect perfection (or almost) and not require anything that can’t be completed perfectly. Those are probably the wrong words but maybe you know what I am referring to. That too is a good principle but it seems impossible to keep when there is trouble narrating.
Any thoughts?
Thanks again!
Alan
I don’t know if you can really talk about perfection in terms of narration. The quotes I’ve heard and read from CM that talk about perfection usually relate to things like copywork, spelling, or math. In Copywork, for example, you only assign as many letters or words as the student can do perfectly. You are expecting the letters to look a certain way. In narration, you are looking for the connections that the child made, which may or may not relate to what connections you made or expected to hear. The purpose of narration is not to evaluate what the child knows, but simply to give them a tool to think about the story/passage, bring out pieces that are important to them, and then express them in some way so that the information becomes part of them.
I do think you need to start with simple expectations. If reducing the length of a passage just results in direct parroting, then read a longer passage. However, you will then have to expect much less detail at first. A 3 sentence narration of a single paragraph may cover most of the material. A 3 sentence narration of a whole page will still mean the student has digested 3 sentences worth of material, there is just more that they didn’t get. That’s okay in the beginning.
At first, just focus on the actual skill of narration. It’s like reading. First you have to learn how to read. In the beginning, you just focus on the words, and don’t have a very high level of comprehension. Eventually your reading skills improve, so you can use reading to learn other things (history, geography, science, etc.) The same applies to narration. First the student needs to learn to narrate, with small baby steps. Later they will be able to use the tool of narration better to make more connections with the material and remember more information. The process will take time, probably months to really ‘get it’ and then years to master the art of narration.
Joanne
Good morning, Alan. Your little guy sounds a lot like my littlest guy in terms of his approach to narration. When I started trying this with him at about age 7, he could not tell me a thing about what I’d just read, and if there was anything, the sentences were broken and jumbled. The advice to start with small chunks really did work best for us; it was a painstaking, laborious process (for both of us!) but I believe that the learning to parrot back, and gradually increasing the length of the passage, builds both the habits of attention and of putting together complete thoughts in a way that’s not overwhelming. We literally did an Aesop’s fable a sentence or two at a time at first.
One thing I discovered in that process was that my son had many “gaps” in his vocabulary, and that there were many words he didn’t understand. One of my goals for him became that he would ASK if he didn’t know a word. Another thing I began doing was to visually scan the passage for words or concepts I thought he’d not understand. I’d write those words out so he could see them, and we’d discuss them before the reading, so he’d start with a little knowledge about it, and the discussion wouldn’t interrupt the flow of reading. After a few weeks (months) of this we moved to an entire Aesop’s Fable at once, then to other stories for narration work.
Don’t be afraid to go really slowly at first; this is an easier skill for some kids to master than others and while Charlotte advocated 10-15 minute lessons for kids, it’s ok to make these lessons shorter at first. For perfection, I’d ask for the child to do his best and work really hard with me for that short time, looking not for perfection in memory of content, but in doing his best to attend and share “something you remember about the story.” I also required complete sentences and might give help forming them, by repeating back what he’d said, but in a sentence, and giving the reminder, “complete sentences please.” Then the next time I’d ask him to tell me about the story, I’d remind him again to use a complete sentence before he narrates.
I didn’t use pointed questions because the gal who leads our local CM study group had advised against it; she said the child needs to make his own connections. It went against my TWTM paradigm, but I’m finding it can work without it. It took me a long time to break out of that TWTM approach I’d used with my other kids for years, but CM’s method truly does work; it just works differently and can take a bit for some children. I see the learning as deeper, however, once it has “clicked.”
One more thought: you say your son seems like a two or three year old in his comprehension – mine was like this too. I realized that a younger child would need to hear more books aimed at younger children, and in addition to his “work,” I made sure we had many language rich picture books on a variety of topics (like those listed on Ambleside Online Year pre-1), and let him choose many at the library as well. In a less formal way, I’d ask him to tell me something he liked about the story once we’d read it, and we’d discuss. Don’t be afraid to back way up in the level of the materials you’re using, and then you may find you’ll fly forward once it’s all clicking, just like when a child learns to read.
Blessings,
Aimee
Wow, thanks! Those are great answers. This whole thread is very helpful.
Yeah, I guess I did mix in the “perfection” thing from copywork– but still the general principle I was thinking of is valid, just not in those words. I see it now in the answers here– what CM was talking about was, in general, not giving a child something they cant handle well, which might be a principle to apply in narration also. It is helpful to hear that progress was made from what sounds like the very same beginnings I am working with.
So far, I have not gone the radically pure CM way that Aimee describes (that is how I am interpreting it). I have instead yielded to TWTM impulses. Still tilting both ways.
Thing is, I do have faith in the CM approach so I should allow it to be tested more and take it super slow.
By the way, my boy can take a standardized reading comprehension passage, and looking up and down the page from passage to multiple choice questions, test above grade level and almost as well as his hungry-mind twin sister. Yet for this narration exercise, he is so weak. In fact the worse he is at it, the more it makes me believe in the value of narration and the more horrified I am that kids can pass through school and no one know they aren’t comprehending anything.
Thanks for your support!
Alan
I’ve just been reading up on narration. This is from the PNEU Teacher’s Handbook for Forms I & II:
NARRATION
Narration is a teaching technique developed by Charlotte Mason to train a child in the habit of attentive reading and rapid comprehension. It is simply an oral repetition in the child’s own words of what has been read by the child or, with younger children, read aloud to them. Throughout Form I all books used in narration lessons are read aloud to the pupil by the parent or teacher, unless the child is exceptionally advanced. In Form II this reading aloud can continue for the more difficult books, such as those used in Literature lessons.
The narration method
We recommend the following method to obtain the best results from narration. First read a passage (or have it read) once. Then, narrate what has been read immediately.
A single reading is insisted on because a pupil who knows there will be another opportunity to hear something is not going to pay full attention the first time. The immediate retelling fixes the material in the pupil’s memory.
Narration lessons must not be allowed to drag. It is the substance of what is read that is to be narrated, not al the trivial details, so the passage read must be long enough to allow of narration. With the six-year-olds a whole fable or fairy tale will be read before the child is asked to narrate. When books are long enough to last for a term or longer the passages chosen for narration must have coherence and plenty of material for the retelling.
Ways of narrating
Oral narration is used throughout IB and for the first two terms in Lower IA. At first a child may get things out of order, may perhaps start in the middle and them, remembering what happened earlier, go back to the beginning. If this happens it need not be corrected. The child should be allowed to tell things in his own way and need not necessarily follow the adult sequence of thought.
A child who is very shy and finds great difficulty with oral narration might be helped by drawing a picture to illustrate the story or incident and then explaining it but this should be only a short-time solution. If praise is given wherever possible for the spoken narration, there should be a gradual growth in confidence.
Form of narration lesson
1. If the readings are part of one long book there will be a very brief recapitulation of the last lesson in the form of an answer to a question like: “How far did we get last time?”
2. Teach any new names of people and places or other difficult key words before beginning the reading so that there will be no need to break off to give explanation and so disturb the child’s concentration. Any difficult names should be written up somewhere where they can be seen during the reading.
3. Read, without interruption, the story or passage chosen for the lesson.
4. Ask for the narration and so not interrupt it. If it is clear that something has been omitted or misunderstood this should be corrected at the end by saying something like: “Yes, and then…?” or “Are you sure that was what happened?” In this way the child is encouraged to set the mistake right for himself.
In Form I the oral narrations tend to be long. They may have a strong flavour of the original and whole sentences may be the same because some of the words or phrases in the reading will be to the child’s taste and his mind will retain these.
In Form II a child should be sorting out what is important from what is merely of interest and will begin to have views on the people or events concerned. These need not be directly expressed but they will probably colour the oral or written accounts.
Occasionally, children may reject or tire of narration. The teacher should act appropriately.
This has helped clear-up some of my questions, and I hope it helps you as well.
Thanks CharleneB, that was helpful! Any chance you or someone here knows the age the children are in Form I versus Form II ?
Alan, I spent many months with a foot in each camp before finally diving in to try to do CM methods more fully. It was liberating! You see, I’d been following a method that determined ahead of time a set body of knowledge the child should absorb, and I was trying to pour it into the child and was looking for evidence that it had been received and retained. This, I realized, makes the child into a product, and it was hard on both of us.
In a CM model, the child is seen as a person who is going to receive the information differently from the way you or I or a sibling might. It really clicked for me when our CM group leader asked me why the child needed certain bits of information I was trying to tease out and get them to “know.” She told me it was ok for the child to make various connections with the story – that they may make different connections than we do, they may later make the connections we’ve made, and they may make connections we’ve never even thought of. If we make the connections for them, the learning isn’t happening; it’s not “their” knowledge to own because they didn’t figure it out for themselves. Over time, these connections build, and it’s truly been fantastic to see that in practice, even though it meant backing up and going slowly to make it really work. I don’t know if this makes sense, but it really helped me break out of the paradigm and give this a go more fully.
A little story about narration and connections: this morning during my quiet time, this almost 9-year-old was very chatty. I encouraged him to get his story Bible and join me for some quiet time. When we were finished, I asked him which stories he’d read, and which was his favorite. He’d read about Jesus’ baptism and then another story about the miracle of the water turning to wine. He then told me Jesus was able to perform the miracle because he’d been baptized – that he’d gotten God’s power then. I had never been thought about that before, and smiled as I reread the two stories quietly and saw this hadn’t been pointed out – he’d made a connection! May not sound like a big deal, but for this little guy who has worked SO hard, it was huge!
Alan, I have been using the CM methods with my daughter for 2 years. I am also an educator and it wasn’t until my daughter went to K-5 at a private school that I realized there might be a problem with the traditional school model. As she went through K-5, it felt like all she was doing was memorizing useless info. She could parrot alot of things, but really didn’t understand why she needed to know it!!! My dd is very visual and hands on when it comes to learning, and even though she made straight A’s she was miserable sitting in a desk all day with work pages. When we started HS it took me a whole semester just to figure out how to use the CM method and how to avoid twaddle. I think the hardest thing we are still working on learning is Narration. I have had to learn to keep my mouth shut and not ask direct questions. This is difficult when we have been taught to educate by asking questions!!! My dd loves to draw and that method of narration is one of our favorites. I actually have allowed her to start drawing in church if it is about what the Pastor is speaking on. Some of her drawings have amazed me to say the least. One of her latest drawing was of the Apostle Paul. He was in Prison with some paper and an ink well and feather pen. There was also a Roman guard holding the keys and some rats scurrying about. When she draws it, she remembers in great detail what she heard. The list of narration ideas on SCM is full of wonderful ideas. Hope you are able to jump in 100% with the CM method!!! Have fun with Narration!!!
Alan – You have been given some wonderful advice. Perhaps this may not be the most orthodox of narration ideas, but you could try having him narrate a “fun” story, one that isn’t “educational”. At the beginnings of narration my boys would sometimes look at me with wide eyes, deer-in-the-headlight, mouths hanging open (and sometimes drool coming out). But read them The Hobbit or Chronicles of Narnia and they would narrate with rich detail and passion. After a while that bled over into their school work and they can now give lovely narrations. They are also rather science-y so having them narrate from science books was less intimidating (and more enjoyable) for them when we started. Is there a subject your son truly loves? Use those as your main narration books until he’s learned the skill of narration.
It takes time to develop the skill to listen, make connections and then find the words to tell about it. Boys, especially, seem to struggle with this, but eventually they learn and it’s a wonderful thing to behold! It’s so exciting to have articulate young men to discuss (argue) things with.
I’m seconding some of the things crazy4boys just mentioned – About it taking time to develop listening skills – My son shed a whole new light on this one day when I asked him to narrate he said “But Mom! I wasn’t listening like that!”. I’ve actually played “Simon Says” just prior to narration with good results. Seemed to improve listening. Your son is older than mine, so “Simon Says” may or may not be appropriate, I only mention it because if listening skills are contributing to the difficuluty, perhaps some other addtional activity would help with listening.
We had no sucess whatsoever with narration until we used Aseop’s Fables (I know you said Aesop wasn’t working for you, but maybe something else “shorter” would work). I choose short fables with a beginning and ending. A complete “story” seemed to help my son. I think it had something to do with the fact that there was a definate beginning and end or there was an “idea” for him to grab onto this way he wasn’t listening to just parrot back. I had previously tried narrating very short passages from a subject he was very interested in with no luck. Aesop was what jump started narration for us. We moved on to narrating the following picture books “Yonie Wondernose” and “Wee Gillis”, narrating picture books may not be very Charlotte Mason, but I’m trying to maintain his feeling of sucess! We did not read either picture book through in one sitting, but spread them out over several days, I ended the reading each time after a I felt we had read a whole “thought”. And it’s worked very well. Next we’re going to narrate the chapter book “Mountain Born”. My only critera in choosing the books was that they needed to be living books, realatively short and ones my son would be very, very interested in. It is SO MUCH EASIER to narrate something of high interest or something a person is very excited about. So I’d try finding a living book your son would be very interested in and narrating from that!
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