Whew! Almost fell right off the CM wagon with the lure of CC?!

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  • Claire
    Participant

    Sonya and SCM … THANK YOU. 

    The last blog post was absolutely what I needed to hear and could not have come at a better moment.  I’m just glad I didn’t postpone reading it any longer than today! 

    An opportunity to participate in and teach for Classical Conversations came my way this past week and I was tempted to jump on it.  Maybe due to wanting a sense of community teaching, maybe because it would have meant some fun money, maybe because I get insecure from time to time … who knows?!  Gee whiz am I glad I didn’t fall for it.

    From my posts everyone knows I’m not a traditional CMer.  In saying that I just mean I tend to expand the box a bit on some things.  However, this “test” sure helped me see that CM is my core philosophy for learning and educating my children.  I’m giving thanks and grateful tonight for having that knowledge and having gone through this little “clarity check” of sorts.  There are aspects of CC that are lovely/interesting, but nothing that doesn’t happen better or more effectively in a CM environment and philosophy. 

    THANK YOU.  AGAIN.

    Monica
    Participant

    I think you’ll find that several people on this board participate in CC. My kids participate in a Catholic-version of CC, called Classically Catholic Memory.

    I read the blog, too. It’s such a difficult balance, isn’t it; the balance between “filling the cup” and “lighting the fire”?

    Do whatever works for your family and your situation. In my opinion, CC can complement a CM education nicely!

    sarah2106
    Participant

    I have multiple friends that do CC and really enjoy it. I am always tempted but the time and financial commitment it can not happen for our family. It is very popular in our area and a bit tough since about 75% of my HS group are in CC so I feel “out of the loop”.

    I have to always remind myself that there are many successful ways to homeschool, and there are many ways to make almostvany curriculium take on a CM style.

    Des
    Participant

    I have to always remind myself that there are many successful ways to homeschool, and there are many ways to make almost any curriculum take on a CM style.

     

    Sarah2106–I so agree with this statement and i’m constantly reminding myself of this.

    Sonya Shafer
    Moderator

    Claire, we’re glad the post encouraged you! 

    Claire
    Participant

    I’m sorry I have been traveling and did not respond to this more timely.  These comments (save Sonya’s) were not what I’d expected. Smile

    I have to always remind myself that there are many successful ways to homeschool, and there are many ways to make almost any curriculum take on a CM style.

    @ Des and Sarah2106, I have to strongly disagree.  CM isn’t a style at all in my opinion.  It is a complete philosophy of education that demands that you adopt some real and steadfast parameters to your homeschooling.  Without those in place, without reading Charlotte’s own words to fully understand the philosophy you run the risk of finding yourself believing that throwing a few living books, and a bit of nature study in your curriculum makes you followers of a Charlotte Mason educational philosophy.  I would argue that is does not.

    Don’t get me wrong!  I know everyone does what works for them and that things change.  I just think when we are too easy breezy with these educational philosophy definitions we get in to trouble.  You can’t be everything.  You can’t have everything. Everything is not compatible. 

    It’s crazy to me sometimes how much flip flopping goes on in one household in terms of their homeschooling philosophy.  (Not that that particular point is relevant here, but still it’s irksome).  How can you get where you want to go, if you don’t know the path you will take?  Pick and stick.  It takes time, in my experience, to learn CM and make it work well.

    @ Jawgee, complimenting MAYBE … I see that participating in CC might do that but it would take away from the philosophy that CM promotes.  I don’t want my children memorizing facts, albeit good facts.  I want them to have a real relationship to what they are learning that lasts and grows.  They can not do that with CC.  I see it as more rigor than public school, more diversity of study than private school.  But not Charlotte Mason like in any way. 

    Please don’t take any offense.  I just wanted to state my opinions.  I know that they will/are not shared by all on here.  This forum has a real diversity of CMers.  That’s both a good and a bad thing sometimes. 

    HiddenJewel
    Participant

    Which blog post are you referring to?

    I do find it interesting that you say you aren’t a traditional CMer yet your last post indicates that a person should be following CM’s original words or he/she isn’t doing it right.

    Monica
    Participant

    @ Jawgee, complimenting MAYBE … I see that participating in CC might do that but it would take away from the philosophy that CM promotes.  I don’t want my children memorizing facts, albeit good facts.  I want them to have a real relationship to what they are learning that lasts and grows.  They can not do that with CC.  I see it as more rigor than public school, more diversity of study than private school.  But not Charlotte Mason like in any way.

     

    A year ago I would have agreed with this 100%.  We do already know, though, that Charlotte Mason’s students memorized poetry, Scripture, and important dates.  Many CC-style co-ops add just a few more subjects (in our case, history sentences, science, math formulas/skip counting, and geography).  I agree that an intense memory program could take the joy out of learning and could interfere with a student’s ability to form connections and savor living books.  My experience this year has been just the opposite, though.

    Our CC-inspired co-op meets a total of 5 hours/month, and in that time my kids have made connections that have amazed me.  When we got to our co-op last week and the kids started working on the timeline, my 7YO couldn’t wait to share with his teacher that he knows all about Ellis Island from the book that we had read the previous week (Coming to America:  The Story of Immigration).  Later in the day, when my kids learned the main parts of an animal cell (rote memorization), it really cemented the lesson we did a few months ago about animal cells – from our living science curriculum.  My 11YO son, who grew to love the stories from the American Revolution from living books we read last year, is proud and excited to be able to recite long passages from Patrick Henry’s “Give Me Liberty” speech.  The speech used beautiful, passionate language, and memorizing the speech has been excellent for my son’s recitation skills, which is definitely something CM taught was important.  “I hope that my readers will train their children in the art of recitation; in the coming days, more even than in our own will it behove every educated man and woman to be able to speak effectively in public; and, in learning to recite you learn to speak.”  (Vol. 1 Part VII)

    I just wanted to illustrate that memory work itself is not anti-CM, and that CM made regular use of memory with her students.  In my experience, many CC-style co-ops could enrich a CM education instead of undermine it.  CC itself might be too intense for some families, but be careful not to swear off all memory work as a result.

    Doug Smith
    Keymaster

    Which blog post are you referring to?

    Lesson 1 from the Exhibit Hall: Savoring vs. Shoveling

    HiddenJewel
    Participant

    My friends’ experiences have been one of subjects coming alive for the student through CC, not a forcing of information. Their children actually love it.

    Rebekah P
    Participant

    The title of this blog post alone is enough to inspire us to relax and persevere.

    Corie
    Participant

    I have to say, we did CC for two years formally and one year at home (a move took us away from our CC community), and we miss it.  We have not done CC at all for the past two years, and I think next year we will at the very least be implementing some of the materials back into our program.  CC is not at all “drill and kill” like some people seem to think, although i could see parents who are worried about their children’s “performance” when it comes to memorization making it that way with too much drill at home.  I loved the fact that my children did hands-on science and art projects almost every week, as I am not the best at doing those things at home.  And to this day, my children will belt out one of their history memory songs any time a date comes up that has a CC song associated with it.  We currently do Truthquest history, and we have had to stop mid-chapter many times in our living books to sing a history song.  🙂  We have been slacking somewhat on our book of centures, but when we do work on it, the history songs and timeline cards they memorized in CC help them to place events in the book.  The program is not for everyone, but it can certainly work well with those implementing a mostly CM education in their homes.  In fact, our CC director was very CM in her homeschool!

    TailorMade
    Participant

    When I read both of Claire’s posts, I sense the “whew,” moment of “if I’m going to develop a CM education here at home, I need to stick with it, or we’ll be derailed…at least for a time…and lose ground in making strides to the end,” (in the first post)… and,  “I’m hopeful, based on CM writings and what others have said about her writings, that sticking to it closely will be more fruitful than another rabbit trail.” (in the second post.) Please read this post with a smile knowing I’m just a mom who’s been down a great number of trails during the last decade and a half. 🙂

    I read posts by those who are fairly strict about following CM’s philosophy and recognize that there is a sort of “security” in picking a philosophy and implementing it fully. Getting panicky when narration skills aren’t developing quickly, or searching for a spelling curriculum when it’s too soon to begin studied dictation tend to be a couple of times when mothers search for other tools. Reading grammar threads shows another time when any of us might worry that CM is not enough. Let’s not discuss math and science as most  seem to find her suggestions lacking when considering college. 

    It might be that there’s a balance that needs to be found when resolving to adhere strictly to any philosophy? Or, maybe we should realize that we are free to follow God’s leading, even it that’s away from all, or part of human suggestion at various times. It could be He wants us to learn empathy for our children and others who struggle with worries and fears (similar to our own.) He may want us to witness to those near us that we’d otherwise not meet if we didn’t do something else for a time. That’s what happened at our house with CC. 

    Our family participated in CC for the 2011-12 school year. I was a Director/Tutor for a small campus of four families. Everyone loved it, but me. It was a stressful workload and I didn’t have the stamina to combine all that was required of me with the more CM style activities to which we were accustomed. It did bring much needed friendships into our lives and the lives of the other families. We’ve all chosen different main styles of home educating, but still come together for a co-op that has taken strengths from a variety of places. the reason for this is that we are all part of one body, with different gifts that we’ve chosen to share. 

    I’d love for it to be strictly CM, but I’m the only one convinced I’d like to stick fairly strictly to CM. I utilize other methods at home, too, but would be happy to ditch them, convert to only CM suggestions, and tend the cottage garden that doesn’t exist at our house…yet. 🙂 I think habits of curriculum can act as rails just as much as any other habit and it would be difficult to break some of them at this point. Besides, they are working, I’m not sure why I’d change except out of loyalty to an ideal.?.

    Our family did keep memory work because of CC. To be frank, I don’t recall reading many CM bloggers concerning themselves with memory work, unless it’s poetry and Shakespeare. I’m going to try to dig some of those blogs up this week. Until recently, I’d never realized CM encouraged memorization, or I’d at least forgotten it and left it for the Classical folks to claim as their personal tool.

    I think some of the frustration mothers tend to have with CM  may lie with the fact that many CM home educators learn/follow CM’s philosophy as regurgitated by others if you will. Authors in the various camps claim certain favorite methods as CM, or Classical, or even unschooling in philosophy. Much of learning just cannot be solely from one source, unless that Source is God. He designed us to learn. 

    Oral tradition (memorization/narration) was a tool long before books and Classical scholars or CM began to use it. Living books were here long before CM used them with success in her schools. Trial and error in teaching and learning offers a chance for anyone and everyone to develop their own philosophy actually. There’d be even more philosophies to chase down and implement if more parents formulated what works with their children, narrowed it down into tenets, and published books that became widely circulated. 

    I think the blog that sparked this thread was a definite encouragement to slow down and think. Grabbing at another option when you are stressed about the things that don’t seem to be working currently is always dangerous. It’s built on human promises. But, I do have to admit, CM style education requires much patience and devotion to see it’s strengths play out down the road. With CC, it’s much easier to have a certain comfort of “proof” that children are learning in a more immediate fashion…even if it is basically superficial. It certainly appeals to those with relatives, neighbors, or friends who question your choice to Homeschool. 

    I think each of us have to pray before making any decision as to changing midstream. Some changes are needed when a certain type of instruction suits Mom, but not child certainly. As parents who’ve mostly gone through the PS system, different methods often finally allow things to make sense for us if they didn’t during our own early education. Sometimes that’s good for our children, sometimes it’s just an opportunity to continue our own education.  It’s called redemption. 🙂

    When we were part of that small campus, the best parts were the sense of community and accountability. I stayed on top of a routine. I hadn’t always dine that following a CM lifestyle. A year later, and with the SCM planning resources, it’s much easier to stay in track, or at least not have a feeling of being behind. 

    From CC, we kept the Veritas Press Timeline practice and use the cards and mental timeline for BoC type work and to “place” books into historical context. I spread the history sentences out over more weeks for study this year (we used Cycle 2 sentences with SCM’s Module 4.) I kept the Discovering Great Artists book as part of our fine arts studies. The experiments are handy, but I don’t do them as frequently as we would in a community situation. Our current co-op doesn’t include science. 

    Our youngest loves the songs and continues to learn well that way on an interest based frequency, its not scheduled. However, our 13yo really was hindered by learning the skip counting songs. He’d memorized the multiplication tables prior to CC and was doing well in that area. The math songs turned into a sort of mental “crutch” that interfered with knowing the facts and it has taken a long time to undo that and get back to an immediate recall on facts for problem solving. So, that was a downside.

    The biggest downside for me was the business end. As a Director, you are required to build the program from Foundations and Essentials, to pushing Challenge levels. This is done by stressing that CC is THE Christian way to Homeschool correctly. You make money as a Director, and even as a tutor, by growing the campus,  increasing the amount of tuition coming in…all fine and good businesswise IF you’re sold out to using someone else’s predetermined curriculum/book choices and can convince enough others to do the same.

    There are books we wouldn’t use and activities we wouldn’t do at as early an age in the Challenge levels as a family, and I couldn’t see insisting that others do so just because someone else had determined what’s best for all children. There were other things about the whole hidden side of CC that just did not sit well with me, but it was a blessing to be able to learn what we like and what we don’t while making friends that continue to participate in cooperative activities with our family. 

    I think the biggest selling point is Community. As Lindsey and others have said in other threads, it’s hard to go it alone. I know. For a decade and a half we were lone homeschoolers in our area, unless you count the families almost a hour away. Rural in all caps is where we live. 🙂 Slowly, but surely, other families are leaving the ps system here and I am thankful that I was able do CC for that one year. It helped me appreciate the freedom found in the simplicity of CM, but it also added some things that I hadn’t recognized as helpful. 

    It actually helped me do a better job of CM style learning at home because I can now see strengths and I’m less likely to give up when skills take longer to be mastered than I think they should. Much of the memory work becomes just an appearance type of “proof” to others that you’re doing something with the kids. I didn’t like that, but as we implement it in a less regimented way, the memory work is actually helping and much less stressful. 

    Rambling post…CC has it’s good points, and bad. Some of it is quite easily coordinated with a CM style home education. But, I want more freedom to determine my children’s education. It certainly gave me more tools to help design it. For that, I’m thankful. 

    ruth
    Participant

    Thank you TailorMade for the insightful post.  I am glad you took the time to write out your experiance and thoughts on CC.  I have known that CC as a whole was not for us, but I did like some of the memorization aspects of it.  I was even contemplating getting the Foundations guide to get the info to work on.  But know I have more confidence that I can just implement memorization of facts as we learn them, saving myself $60 and I’m sure a lot of future un-needed stress. 

    Amy
    Member

    Thank you all for the insights – I’m drawn to Memoria Press’ recitations, and trying to decide how they fit into our school. A lot of them are common knowledge (days of the week, your birthday) and the higher grade ones are linked to the books they schedule.

    I’d love to read some blogs (or CM quotes) on memorization outside of Bible & poetry.

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