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repeating a grade – need advice
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My husband and I are trying to decide what would be the best grade placement for our eight-year-old daughter next year. I would really appreciate some input from you wise women. Here is some background:
She has a late summer birthday and had we sent her to public or private school we would have waited until she was six to start. However, since we were homeschooling we just started and have been plodding along teaching the next thing ever since. We have not worried about her being ahead or behind or keeping up with what kids in p.s. know. At church, she has been moving along with the same group of kids since kindergarten and they all just finished 3rd grade. Most of the kids are a year older but she fits in fine and it seems to be a pretty good group of kids.
A couple of things have got me thinking that maybe we should have her stay in the third grade class at church again next year but I feel very uncertain about the decision.
1) She still has a lot of trouble getting things down in writing. When we are doing copywork she can write neatly. When we are doing her All About Spelling lessons (we just finished the second grade book) she can spell most of the words correctly. When we we are specifically talking about it, she knows basic punctuation. However, when she goes to write something on her own it is a total mess (spelling, handwriting, grammar, etc.). Much of what she writes would be unrecognizable to someone who didn’t have an idea about what she was trying to say.
2) Her reading seems to be O.K. She has completed the first three years of the Pathway Readers and can read easier chapter books. When she reads aloud, she often adds or changes little words but gets the meaning. It is still hard for her to read a book for information (like a biography) and process it enough on her own to give a good narration.
3) She just finished MUS Gamma and did fine with that. She does well listening and narrating in our family subjects.
4) Some friends of ours have a daughter who is younger than most of the other kids in her grade. The parents don’t feel comfortable granting her some of the freedoms that her older classmates have and the daughter is feeling like that keeps her from fitting in. They are wishing they would have kept her with kids her own age but now after 7 years with the same peer group, it would be very difficult for the daughter to go down to a lower grade. I know this is just one family’s experience but it did get me thinking that if we don’t think she will be ready to graduate at 17, then it would be much easier to put that extra year in now instead of when all her friends are going off to college.
I’m hoping you all can provide some suggestions, thought-provoking questions, experiences, etc. that would help us as we think and pray about what would be best to do.
Thank you,
Amy
I can see that your dd having friends is very important to you. You did a great job describing where she’s at academically, but I wonder where she’s at socially and emotionally? Do you feel that she needs to stay where she’s at or move on when considering those aspects?
Personally, we don’t make decisions for our children based upon what their friends may or may not be doing. Our children don’t participate in many children’s activities at church because we don’t want any pressure from them or anyone else to “keep up”. Does that make sense? The time our children spend at church or with friends is pretty small compared to the amount of time they spend with us, grandparents, and other adults. We actually don’t keep track of what grade our children are in. They are at different levels for different subjects, and we don’t feel it’s fair to place them in a “4th grade box” or to classify them in any way.
I hope this doesn’t sound critical, because it isn’t meant to. Have you considered that it may not matter one way or the other what you do in this particular situation? Is your dd really spending so much time involved in church activities that it matters which grade she’s in? Even if her friends graduate from public school a year ahead or a year behind your dd, will it matter in the long run? I guess what I’m trying to say is that it seems like the decision to hold your dd back or let her move forward is based upon what her friends are doing. I totally respect you wanting your dd to have good friendships and to be social, but just being around kids her own age at church won’t accomplish socialization. This old thread may be of some help to you as you consider what your goals for your daughter’s socialization are: http://simplycharlottemason.com/scmforum/topic/homeschooling-q038a-what-about-socialization
I didn’t recognize your name, so I’m guessing you’re new at SCM. And I sure don’t want your first experience on here to be negative! 😉 If I’m coming across as critical, I’m sorry; I assure you that I understand that what is important to your family may not be to mine and vice versa. Every family is different, so I can only give my experience and opinions. Anyway, those are my thoughts and questions. 🙂
Blessings,
Lindsey
I’m a little confused as to whether you are talking about holding her back a year in your homeschool/reported state grade level or your sunday school/youth group program. Or both?
We don’t worry about grade levels really. At church the kids are divided by age (birth year, not school year). We teach the child and if that means they need extra time in writing and fly ahead in math so be it.
I think for your daughter’s age she’s doing just fine in the writing arena, by the way. Charlotte did not expect a child to put thoughts on paper (writing, which is different than copywork) until beginning around age 10 when they started written narration. I know that ‘society’ today expects differently, which can make us feel guilty if our child can’t yet write and spell and punctuate when they are younger. I would encourage you to let go of what ‘others’ can do and focus on slow, consistent progress for your individual child.
Maybe I’m missing the mark, but this is what I hear you asking. I totally get it. My 2 youngest dc are in a very similar situation – mid/late summer b-days (close to the cut-off date for ps), needing just a bit more time for development both academically and emotionally (at times).
Yes, we decided to “wait” to start them for ps, and we based our starting date for hsing on that decision. Basically you did the same but started hsing anyway. Personally, I’m very glad we did because they’ve definitely needed time. One of the reasons was confirmation from a friend of mine. She was “younger” as she went through school. She did fine academically but struggled being the youngest all the time. She wasn’t as mature as all her friends and was always left out of something somehow. Now, I know this doesn’t happen w/ everyone and can even happen to those who are “older” but why set yourself (or your dd) up for that from the get-go.
Your question is a bit different than the typical socialization question. But, that does come into play a bit, so knowing your own answers for it are good. Also, and this is big, we live in a world that functions under knowing the dc’s “grade.” It’s a faulty system, of course, but there needs to be some way for guidelines in various activities or functions.
As for the social part w/ church, we were blessed w/ ds because he was just a few weeks older than his best buddy who fell just beyond the cut-off, so it worked out well/fine for him (or would have). But I’ve had to “adjust” his birthday to keep him w/ his friends/peers for summer soccer. (Dd is the same.)
Now, dd was in a situation more like your dd’s. The dc she knew and were apt to be w/, were that yr “older” than her. For her, I would have continued where we were (just starting K) but looked at developing connections w/ other dc as well. Them, the time the “older” ones switched and she didn’t would have been a good point to start chatting about how they use their “grade” as a guide and she’s still friends w/ the others. It wouldn’t change anything w/ their relationship. Also, most churches wouldn’t have an issue w/ a child who was good friends w/ others that close in age just letting them move along together as could have happened as well.
I think the issue or question comes up more as they get older and the other “social” issues start coming out. This seems to be part of your concern, maybe? And, wanting to have some direction or thoughts on it now is what you’re wondering. Personally, I would probably look at her “grade” and do whatever adjustments need to happen at this point. It will be easier than later, typically, but you know your dd best.
First, you will have questions from adults. So, you will just let them know that you’ve decided to keep here where she is for her grade, and not just move her along w/ those friends. You’re thinking more long-term and don’t want to have to do that later. They *should* get that, but oh well if they don’t. As for your dd, you’ll have to figure out how to do this best based on your situation. I would think you can share w/ her the same thing, that you’re keeping her where she needs to be based on their division guidelines of grades. It is what it is, and that’s what I would tell my dc. Honestly, it’s going to be much easier now vs later.
Of course, we all know that grades are irrelevent once you’re an adult. And, in all honesty, it isn’t the best way to divide dc. As hsers, we’re bucking the system for many reasons. Also, how the whole social aspect is handled w/in each family is different. Some hsing families don’t do any activities outside their home, family, and church or are very limited in what they do, choosing things that don’t require this. Other families are very involved outside the home unit and need to know this for all their other activities and functions. I think most of us fall in the middle to the diverse, varying degrees that it really is. So, depending on those familys’ needs, then they would need to know this answer.
The real world does not function in this segregated manner, but for various reasons, this is how it’s done as the dc grow up. We as hsers function more like the real world in our interactions, but do have to have a way to function in that segregated aspect when necessary. Also, because it’s what “they” (adults and dc) know, we have to be able to function in that fashion when it’s called for. This is why, in my opinion, it’s good to know “where” they would place if. In this case, like w/ my 2 youngest dc, going w/ the grade we would have placed them in for ps is a good option to use.
K
ps – As for your concerns/comments about her academic abilities/struggles, it sounds normal for her. All of us have strengths and weaknesses in the academic arena, and so do dc in traditional school settings. She WILL get to where she needs to be when she gets there. It WILL come.
I know what you are talking about! I had my son skip 1st grade at home and put him a year ahead at church. A few years later, school work became difficult for him, and he repeated 4th grade.
His church friends were mostly public schooled and said “You fluncted homeschool? Wow, that must be really hard to do!” That said, I am sure that boy’s friendship was no great loss.
My son recovered and made more friends, but if I could do it over we would not have skipped a grade, at church or home.
My concern would be if you feel your daughter would benefit enough from these friendships to compensate for the fact that she will be dealing with junior high and high school issues a year sooner. Truth is almost all youth group kids are boyfriend/girlfriend crazy.
Praying,
C
I forgot to say that I held him back a year at church. Some of the homeschool parents do not allow their teens to go to youth classes for this and other reasons. We have a large church and many teens go to one service with their family and serve as helpers in the younger kids classes for another service. These kids still have opportunities to socialize, and it is easier to train them to be adults this way, KWIM?
All of my kids go to service with us now( no kids classes). Two of my teens start as kids class helpers in another service this week.
Hth,
C
Lindsey, I did not find your post critical in any way and appreciate what you had to say. The non-academic description of my daughter would be that she is a hard-worker, responsible and gets along well with others. She fits in well with older and younger kids. At times she is bossy. She worries if things aren’t going how she thinks they should. I would say she fits both the positive and negative aspects of a typical first-born. I see her emotional and social development as normal.
Currently, I am not worried at all about her having friends. She spends the most time with her three younger siblings (7, 5 and 4) and they have a lot of fun together. We also have two families that we are friends with and all the kids (ages 1-11) play well together. My concern is more for the future. When we graduate her, I want her to be well prepared for whatever the Lord has for her. Part of that preparation includes being a strong communicator in speech and in writing. If what I am seeing now is a signal that this may be an area that she struggles with, would it be wise to just build in that extra year now? As much as I agree with the don’t worry about the grade – just teach the child mindset, I find it very hard to put into practice. People are always asking what grade the kids are in. This is a common question on forms, etc. We started out telling our daughter that we are just teaching her the next thing she needs to know and not worrying about the grade but somewhere along the line, she has come to see herself as in the grade that she is in at church and will probably continue to see herself in that grade unless we do something different. When those kids graduate, she will expect to graduate as well. Being that my oldest is 8, it is hard for me to envision how this might affect her or our relationship if we decide that we want to keep her at home and in school for another year.
eawerner, we are considering holding her back a year in both. It won’t probably change much of what we do at home except that I would worry less if we didn’t get as far in some subjects so we could focus more on problem areas. At church, we would hold her back for the reasons stated above.
Tristan, Thank you so much for your encouragement to focus on my child instead of what “other kids” seem to be able to do. Until the last few months, I have been able to do this and have had peace in the process but now I find myself worrying that she is falling behind. It is good to hear that her writing may not be atypical for someone that has been taught with Charlotte Mason methods.
So, as I continue to process this, for those of you who don’t keep track of what grade your child is in, what does that look like in day to day life? What do your kids say when people ask them what grade they are in? How do you determine when to graduate them? If I just focus on my child and don’t worry about what other kids can do, how do I know if there really is an area that might need some remediation? I don’t want to stress out about her being behind if it is likely to all even out eventually but I also don’t want to ignore problems and let big learning gaps develop.
I so appreciate this forum. I rarely post but it is my go-to source for inspiration and direction. Tristan and Lindsey, you both have greatly impacted me and my family with your wisdom on many occasions. Thank you for your willingnes to take time from your busy lives to invest in others.
Amy
When people ask what grade they’re in, they respond, “I’m homeschooled.” Then that person usually turns to me with a confused expression, and I go on to explain, “We don’t classify our kids by grade level because they are at different levels in different subjects.” That usually settles it. If our kids do an activity at church, they will go in whatever group they need to based upon their age. I typical place them in the group where they will be at the older end rather than the younger end.
As for when to graduate, I think that’s something you’ll have a much better idea of as your dd gets older. You don’t have to worry about that right now. When you begin planning her later years, you’ll plan to complete her subjects by X time. If she is very driven, motivated, and eager, it’s very possible that she could finish high school when she’s 16 or 17. That’s not unheard of for exceptional homeschoolers, but I also don’t think it’s something you need to push for either. Or if she is just herself and has you guiding her, she can finish when she’s 18. Even graduating at 19 wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world, especially if she ends up being very mature and has a lot of experience and wisdom by that time.
You can’t focus on what other kids her age are doing when it comes to academics. You’ll either get very prideful if you see that she’s very advanced, or you’ll feel woefully inadequate if she’s “behind” in any way. (Ask me how I know.) 😉
Hop over to the other threads we’ve got going about a rigorous CM education and the last 2 pages of the “at the end of my rope with Apologia Biology” thread. I’m posting from the road and on my phone, so I can’t insert a link. Those threads might help you in determining what areas you need to challenge your dd more.
from both above….When people ask what grade they’re in, they respond, “I’m homeschooled.” Then that person usually turns to me with a confused expression, and I go on to explain, “We don’t classify our kids by grade level because they are at different levels in different subjects.” That usually settles it.”
Lindsey, I LOVE this! I do much the same, but I tend to be a bit wordy about it. I love how simple you make it. Thanks!
We don’t do grade levels either, my children respond the same way. as far as graduating, i gave my dd16 a list of what the state of Texas requires for graduation and told her, “when you have completed these you may graduate.” she is about 1/2 the way through. we take a lot of time off for training and such so she will probably graduate a year behind her peers; she is not concerned.
Thanks, Angelina! I got so tired of people always prodding, “Yes, but what grade are they in?”, as if I was supposed to magically come up with something to satisfy their probing. Ha! For my children, they really are at different levels, depending on the subject. Ds10 reads at a 9-10th grade level, but he’s right at his level for other subjects. I can’t say he’s in 9th grade! Anyway, I’m glad you found that simple and helpful.
We’ve come across this exact situation with our now nine year old daughter. She has a December birthdaybut was ready for things like phonics before she turned five, so we let her start doing those things in the fall when she was four. Was she in Kindergarten? Yes, if you consider the work she was capable of doing, no if you consider her age. Just like you, our kids are involved in classes in our church and that year we put her in the K5 class (the K4 class was full of unruly boys :).
The next year I was talking with a wise older homeschool mom who had graduated a few students by then and she suggested that we go ahead right then and consider her a K’er at the appropriate age, so basically hold her back in name only. We continued on with the work that SHE was capable of doing (she progresses more quickly in math than LA), but for outside activities we considered her in the grade that was appropriate for her age from then on. We are very glad we did.
Yes, I practice the same methods of progressing with the child, not according to the grade, but if you’re involved at all in outside activities children are often categorized by grade. Also, despite our best hopes and dreams for our kids, we don’t know who they will be when they reach 16, 17 or 18. At that point we will have the freedom to “graduate” early for a mature child who is ready for the next challenge OR the ability to keep them for another year without anyone having to feel embarrassed.
I am very glad we made the decision to keep her among her same age/grade level peers.
Just wanted to mention… not all PS’ers graduate ‘on time’…. so you don’t know what her current friends might be up to at age 17/18/19…
Thank you all for sharing your experiences and thoughts. It has given me a lot to consider and pray about. Retrofam, the comment about having kids serve at church during the second service reminded me that if we do decide to keep her in the same peer group at church and down the road feel that it is no longer a good fit, we do have other options.
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