OT: Home Church?

@ServingWithJoy,

No offense taken whatsoever!

My only major issue w/ the original poster wanting to leave her church and have church at home is that I understood her desire was to just have their family meeting at home for church. I know there are people who do this: they do not gather with other believers in worship, rather they simply have their own family gather in the living room on Sunday mornings and have church. This is what I was warning Marie against. 

I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT believe that the Church is a building. I also do not believe in segregating people in the church by age–we have had many awkward discussions with our pastor regarding this. He hired us knowing full well our beliefs regarding children’s and youth ministry, and several times he has tried to tell us we aren’t “fully committed” to the “ministry” of the church because of what he already knew about us and hired us anyway! I agree completely with you that today’s “youth” are not held to the standard of the Bible and most of the time meet at church for entertainment and socializing rather than accountability, Communioin, study of the Scripture, or true worship.

As for drawing in unsaved…that is not my job, your job, or the church’s. This will probably offend some of you, but let me explain. The Bible does not say that people draw men to God. John 12:32 Jesus says, “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples unto Myself.” He also says in John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” And John 14:6, “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'”

Yes, I must live a life of holiness and no matter what I do, I must do it for the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31). But I have to trust Holy Spirit to draw people to Himself. My job is to create meeting places between people and God (Tabernacle), to minister to God, to carry His Presence, and to bless the people. My job, your job, and the church’s job is not to attract unsaved people. God is very capable of doing that on His own.

I know this probably sounds completely crazy to you. When I first began learning these truths, it was crazy to me too. If you’d like to know more, I encourage you to read a book called How to Worship a King by Zach Neese. It has changed my life!

But back to home church–if Marie wants to gather with other believers and worship in her or someone else’s home–go for it! That’s how “church” was done in the days of Acts, and it worked! The Bible says that thousands were added to their number, and that no one had want or need because they were all taking care of each other. That’s CHURCH! I am convinced that most American churches (including my own) are doing it wrong. We are not following the pattern God put in place to approach Him–Tabernacle. And our churches are lifeless, stagnant, “seeker friendly”, and dying because of it.

So, ServingWithJoy, I don’t disagree with you at all! I just spoke truth to Marie about Hebrews 10:24, 25 because we are to stir up love and good works for others and gather ourselves together to worship corporately. Whether that worship happens in a living room or in a football stadium makes no difference to me. It is also wise to be under spiritual authority. If Marie’s family chooses to leave their church and start a home church, I would encourage her and her husband to find another couple with which they can be accountable. Especially her husband, since he is head over the wife and family. The way “church” is set up today provides spiritual accountability because the members of the church are under the authority of the pastor, and the pastor is under the authority of God. Of course we are all under God’s authority, but we are also to be submitted to and praying for our leadership.

I could probably write a book on this because I am so passionate about it. I completely believe that Zach Neese (author of the book I mentioned) is a Wesley or Moody or Luther of this day. He is reforming Church with truth–and it’s all coming from a correct interpretation of Scripture. I highly recommend you read his book. Although our pastor is not willing to read or implement any of it in our corporate body, my husband and I are taking these teachings, and they are transforming our family. Our pastor has also allowed us to teach this in our life group, and those people are getting it! I don’t think it will be long until our pastor has to at least give it a chance because people’s lives are already being changed.

Anyway, I agree with you more than you think. And I don’t feel like my toes were stepped on in any way. I love discussions like these. I think this is what women’s ministry should be all about! This is meaty stuff, and it’s great!

Much love,

Lindsey 

I, too, took Marie’s original post to mean just her family meeting at home on Sundays. Of course church is not the building, it is the body of believers! Mine meets in a warehouse! 🙂

I agree with Lindsey, if you are meeting with others, and there is true accountability in leadership and submission to Christ and His Word, it doesn’t matter much where you meet. But prayerfully consider where God wants you, I think sometimes we can want to leave a place because it’s uncomfortable, but God may want us to stay to sanctify us through others, or because He wants to use our gifts there.

I agree that it has been a lively and interesting discussion! And I think most of us are aiming at the same goal here – “church” as a group of believers who come together for community, worship & prayer, individual and corporate spiritual growth and for the glory of God.

I would probably define the ‘assembly’ a lot more broadly than some others may – but isolation is not the answer.

I did want to point out that for those of you who are presently in a denominational (or traditional) church, it may be beneficial for you or your pastor to read “Pagan Christianity” or “ReImagining Church” and to do some research on what is becoming a major part of Christian thought and culture.

If you think of the increasing emphasis on ‘home cell groups’ or ‘home fellowship’ even within the traditional church, I think you can see that there is a growing movement toward making church more about small group, intimate meetings. Anyone (but especially clergy) could benefit from understanding more about what home ‘church’ is all about.

And – without getting into further theological discussions – those books do an excellent job of outlining what the apostles, pastors, teachers, evangelists, elders, and deacons really are and what the authority structure looked like in the Bible.

I will give you a hint: it’s a little less authoritarian than what is practiced in most of today’s churches. It is less man-centered and more centered on Jesus Christ as the head of the church (Eph 5:23) – with individual church members acting in their God given functions of pastoring, teaching, evangelizing, prophesying, and apostleship. The traditional church has pretty much wrapped up the five fold ministry into one man – the ‘Lead or Head’ Pastor, and his authority is pretty powerful and is often ineffective or (worse) abused.

Matthew 23:8-12 has some of Jesus’ thoughts to seriously consider.

To be honest, we have experienced far more accountability and spiritual growth by meeting in our homes with people who are talking about what is really going on in our lives. How much real accountability is there in a church ‘service’? When does the pastor ever hear about problems of sin in church members’ lives? Usually not until there has been significant damage to relationships and faith.

Lindsey, I will read the book you recommended if you will read Pagan Christianity :0). Don’t forget that when Jesus finished his work on the cross, the curtain of the Tabernacle was torn top to bottom. Don’t know what the pattern of worship regarding the Tabernacle you are referring to is, but I will read and find out!

Kind of hi-jacked the post…sorry! But I felt that Marie had some real concerns about her church that were Biblical and should have been redressed when she discussed them with the leadership. God does care about her, her husband and kids, and their heart. He cares about what is bothering her in their church.

I would suggest that her husband step in as the spiritual head and have the discussion with the pastor or youth leader as far as what the problems really are. And I think if we all looked to Matthew 18:15 to resolve our disputes we would have much more unity in the church!

But here (and this is a big problem to me) you have ‘children’ who are not following Christ’s commands in their attitudes and behavior. So how is that addressed? Should they go to the teens and say, “Be nice!”. Should they go to the parents? What would they say?

My point is that because of this skewed structure of our churches the reality is that we are throwing our kids to the lions every week by sending them into ‘fellowship’ with non-believing teens. Now certainly, not every teen in church is a non-believer…but many are.

And what is the parent to do when we are told that our kids should fellowship with kids that really aren’t living the Christian faith – and all in the name of “Church”. Something is very wrong when our man-made traditions begin to supersede the word of God.

When was the last time you heard of church authority being Biblical exercised when a man or woman in the church was caught in adultery, drunkeness, greed, and the like. It (mostly) does not happen in today’s churches, because the reality is that people put on their ‘church face’ and don’t reveal themselves and their problems to the pastor or other leaders until it is too late.

My husband and I have served as deacons, youth pastors, Sunday school teachers, and on the board of para-church ministries. So I am not speaking from a lack of experience with the viewpoint of church leadership.

It is very important that Marie’s family seriously and prayerfully consider their decisions about where to fellowshp and what leadership they put themselves under. But it is equally important that we in the church (especially in leadership) begin to humbly understand that everyone’s voice matters to God.

I just didn’t want her to feel that her concerns weren’t important enough to be heard -or that she was in rebellion just because she wasn’t in agreement with the ‘leadership’ of her church. It is entirely possible that the church is in the wrong, and she is in the right.

That doesn’t mean she doesn’t love them. It doesn’t mean she can’t forgive them and still move on to another church. It doesn’t mean she can’t forgive them and stay in her present church. Whatever God leads her family to do, as long as they do it with a loving attitude that respects the other believers, He is not going to condemn them, and I know the wonderful ladies here wouldn’t condemn them either.

Blessings!

Heather

You’ve got a deal, Heather! I’ll read the book you recommended. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised what the Tabernacle of old has to teach us about how to approach God, and I’m sure I’ll learn a lot from the book you recommended. I’m going to order it now!

And yes, Marie’s concerns are valid! If I had to sum up my opinion on her original question in one sentence, I would say this:

Don’t leave a body of believers with a rebellious heart or unresolved offense, or it will come back to bite you.

That’s it. Offenses have a nasty tendency to follow people around, and then they wonder why they skip from church to church, always having the same complaint. Not that Marie or anyone else here is doing that; I just felt that I had to mention it.

Great, deep discussion ladies. Love it!

Well, even if Marie isn’t getting anything out of it, I sure am! I have felt challenged to go seeking TRUTH, but challenged in a good way, not a judged way. 

How to Worship a King WILL change your life! At this point in my own life, it’s been the single most impacting, truth-filled, scriptural book I’ve ever read in my life--besides the Bible, of course. I’m telling everyone I know about it. My husband has been giving copies away. It’s changing our immediate family, our extended family, our life group. Wow!

I can’t wait to read Pagan Christianity too!