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Memorization a la Classical Conversation
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Yes, I know that CC can seem like a big MLM campaign, because each tutor and director get paid according to enrollment. Aside from the marketing issues, can we discuss memorization in general and specific to classical, CM, and CC (which is one strand of classical, but does not describe all versions of classical?) I’ve watched the Learning and Living DVDs, and Sonya did a great job of explaining the “pegs” that both classical and CM use in general. She described that classical uses facts as the pegs upon which ideas are hung later on. CM uses ideas upon which facts are hung upon later on.
I can see BOTH way working. For us, we use catechism with the children. One of the questions is “What is God?” and the answer is “God is a spirit and He has not a body like a man.” This was drilled into the kids. One day at church someone talked about the “hand of God” and my 4yo daughter asked me, “Mom, but God has not a body like a man. He has no hands.” The memory/fact peg made it possible for her to ask some good questions and make connections. She might have made those connections without the memory peg, but I’m not sure.
So, I know that rote memory is important and useful. But how much?? CC does a LOT. They memorize seven strands, or categories, of information each week. Having educated my 16yo with CM methods for most of his schooling, I can see the holes, and I can see how some memory work *might have* helped fill those holes.
On the flip side, I can see the CC kids are far less well-read than my son. He read 40ish books each year in his freshman and sophomore year. His history knowledge, not just facts, but the IDEAS behind the happenings is vast. I’m thrilled with that. But his grammar knowledge, math knowledge and ability to remember science facts are lacking. I want to do better with my 7 younger kids.
I think this is a great question! I think there can be a better balance between the two ends of the spectrum if you want more memory work but not a crazy amount (a la CC)and plenty of living books and reading still kept intact. I think it has to be a family balance though and I know at my house some kids would do better with more memory hooks placed while others would do better with more idea hooks placed. I have one son, for example, who is very much a ‘give me the facts please’ guy. He loves to read, taught himself to read at age 3.5 and has devoured chapter books for years (he’s only age 7 now). However of all my reading kids so far he’s the one who often chooses to sit down with a non-fiction, fact centered book when he wants to read about a topic, and literature is not the first route he chooses.
I’ll also say that if I have to choose one end of the spectrum or the other for my own family I would choose the CM ideas end. Why? Because if you teach a child how to learn and nurture their love of learning with ideas(and books!) they can find the facts they need when they need them.
So of the things you mentioned specifically you want to do better with, here are ideas:
1. Math knowledge – I’m guessing you mean math facts? So why not try adding in one simple thing to address this. And not all the time, just at the right time for each child. This summer, for example, I have my 4 oldest children using Xtramath.com to work on the automatic recall of their math facts. I don’t drill for days and weeks and years on end, but I do try to offer opportunities for them to master this small body of information to ease their more complex math work.
2. Grammar knowledge – do you mean things like nouns, verbs, pronouns, etc? That kind of grammar? Choose something to specifically address it when you think a child needs that knowledge. I’m with Charlotte, later is fine and as grammar is abstract knowledge I see it understood much more quickly by my children when they are older and ready for abstract thinking. (In other words, I could do a grammar program every year from 1st-12th grade. It’s a finite body of knowledge but when you start in 1st grade they really don’t grasp much so we spend 12 years of their life repeating and adding to it until they are finally old enough to ‘get it’. OR I can wait until they are late middle school or even high school and cover grammar in a short, focused way over 1-2 years at a time when they are able to grasp the information and understand it. I prefer devoting the shorter amount of time to it when they are older, but others may not!)
Science facts – what do you feel they are missing that they need? Have them spent time in nature and are they reading living books and handling living materials? I’m interested to hear what you think you might want learned by memory earlier! This is such a vast area.
Looking forward to more discussion on this one!
We do a co-op similar to CC. Initially I didn’t like the idea of doing a memory co-op because I felt it was the antithesis of CM, but I have found there is a synergy and balance between the two that is rewarding.
Our co-op is one morning each week and we meet for around 20 weeks. It is a four-year cycle, so our family builds our history and science around what we will be studying in co-op. This year I just loved when the kids learned some simple memory sentences about Lewis & Clark in co-op and were so interested in the story afterwards. I’ve noticed often that when I start reading about something they’ve memorized in co-op, a light comes to their eyes and they are engaged in the story.
That said, our co-op (Classically Catholic Memory) is far less intense than CC. There are no paid tutors, no afternoon sessions of extra work (although we did add IEW for some of the older students last year). We’re just a group homeschooling families using CCM as our spine and filling in with living books at home. It has been an excellent addition to our homeschool. We begin Year 4 this fall, meaning we will have completed a full cycle of the program at the end of the school year.
My older two, who are 13 and 9 and both boys, have benefitted from the program. My younger two, who are 7 and 6 and both girls, will begin their first year of the full curriculum this year.
I wanted to add that I use the Curriculum Guide here on SCM to build our schedule for what we study at home. The memory co-op helps to cement some of the things we are learning at home. (That, and I love our science teacher for doing the fun experiments at co-op that I don’t like to do at home.) 🙂
Tristan, the holes I’m noticing in science are mainly that my oldest son specifically complained about how hard it is to memorize or truly learn the vocabulary needed in high school. We use HOD, and for biology they assigned PACES, and tests were open book. I have no problem with that. HOD is science-light with suggestions for STEM kids. He understood all of the big ideas and concepts, and actually enjoyed science. BUT if he had to study for a real biology test, he doesn’t think he could remember the terms.
As for grammar, we used R&S, as written in HOD for years and years. No retention. His narration writings are good, and I have seen so much fruit from that, but his more technical writing (a research paper) was like pulling teeth. I’d like to see that gel sooner than sophomore year with my other kids.
But I agree, if I have to choose between one end of the spectrum, I’m going to run towards CM. I just wish I could find a really good balance between the two. I just don’t think I have enough time and energy to do it all.
Jawgee, I’ve seen exactly what you describe in my kids’ eyes. This year we memorized the old CC timeline, the one made by Veritas Press. When we came to a history concept in our reading that they had learned the term for it was a like they were getting to open a little present.
Your sounds a lot like mine. My son understands science and can apply it well, but has trouble using the right vocabulary words, so his science test scores don’t reflect his abilities and understanding.
I have not used it yet, but I plan to get Science Roots by, Nancy Paula Hasseler for my younger children.
For grammar, again that is vocabulary based. Cozy Grammar is a dvd program that may help. I have also used Stevenson Grammar and Winston Grammar with some success.
Foreign language is another area he didn’t do well in. He did one year of Spanish with very little retention. We switched to sign language, and since my daughter is an interpreter now and we have deaf friends at church, he uses his sign enough to retain it.
Hth!
We’ve done CC for two years and I was a tutor last year. But I do not do a lot of rote memorization with my kids. It’s just not me. I like the idea of ideas as pegs more than just a lot of facts.
But, I do think there is a place for some rote memorization. Math facts, catechisms, Scripture memory. Because little kids can memorize so well, I want to take advantage of it to some extent. But I also know that some of the passages of Scripture that I memorized as a kid had the least meaning to me as an adult. I don’t want that to happen to my kids so I do what the connections to be made.
MissusLeata, please, please, please share with me what your day looks like. What do you use from CC and what do you use from CM?
We signed my 10yo up for Essentials only. EEL is seriously the best grammar I’ve seen. Like a better, slightly longer version of Analytical Grammar. I signed up just to be able to use it. I may just teach it at home after next year.
I’ve had the Cycle 1 cds since they went on sale a few years ago, so I could just have my kiddos listen to those in the van without actually expecting perfect memorization.
*We have 8 kids (16,10,9,8,6,4,3,2) so I probably won’t sign us all up for CC, but I have considered it for my 4-10yos.
My day looks much more CM than CC. We won’t be doing CC this year since our campus is closing, but last year I’d just pick one or two pieces (history and science, usually) of the memory work and put the song on repeat and let the kids listen to it. 🙂
We were doing US Geography, so I bought a US map Bingo game and we played that a few times a week and also did “map study” with a blank map to color in the States they knew.
If I really want something memorized like a passage of Scripture (when we start school, I’m planning on teaching The Apostle’s Creed), I just read it out loud a lot. If I have it as a song, I might just put the song on. I LOVE Songs for Saplings for teaching the catechism this way. But, it’s not as important to me that they can quote it perfectly, I’d rather they have the concepts!
Honestly, I’d use the Essentials stuff over Foundations. I loved foundations in that it gave me fine arts and science projects. But for the really little ones, most of grammar is way over their heads. My kids needed a group and that’s what was available (and I needed a group.) But, the Essentials and Challenge stuff looks amazing!!!! (But it’s expensive!) But the language arts in Essentials is awesome!!!!
I think that confirms what I had planned, we will do Essentials with my upcoming 6th grader and leave the rest.
I can tell you what we do, and I really think it has worked well. As we go through whatever we are studying, I jot down short lists onto index cards. For instance, if we are reading about plants, I’ll jot down the parts of a flower into an index card. As we were reading through Paddle to the Sea, I made an index card of the Great Lakes. When we were reading about energy conservation, I made an index card for that. etc. etc. It takes us mere minutes to quickly review those cards from time to time. and our stash of cards is getting really big.
It’s basically CC backwards. Instead of memorizing first, we read first, memorize last. We don’t spend much time on it at all, but by constantly reviewing it, they remember it.
If I can get my act together, I plan to organize it according to SCM Scripture memory system. But until then, we just review….sometimes even in the car. The 3×5 cards keep the system simple as opposed to making a complicated memory binder.
To me, it’s the best of both worlds. CC was too much and too soon. (we did a full year of CC) This method has really worked for us.
And anything put to music is gold. You’ll be singing it for years. We have Geography Songs, States and Capitals Songs, and the CC timeline and history sentence songs. We play them in the car all the time. Those are what they remember the most.
Well now, that is a fabulous idea. I’ll have to train myself to pay attention to things that can be listed and learned.
I agree with Tristan…I think there is a balance between the two. I think CC would be a horrible fit for our family, but I do like some of the classical methods for certain subjects. I like the idea of sentence diagramming and teaching different writing methods (instead of just narration). We’ll be using ELTL next year and I like that it is a combination of both HS methods.
For science, I just picked up Teaching Science and Having Fun. It has an extensive list of science vocabulary words organized by age levels. It also has some lab report forms and ideas for setting up science labs. While the author uses the unit study approach, I think it will be a great resource for CM methods as well. http://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Science-Having-Felice-Gerwitz/dp/0970038542
Personally, I think classical homeschooling has way too much memorization. I don’t feel my DC need to memorize every “rule” they come across. But, I don’t think some memorization (or just familiarity) is a bad thing either. Do they need to memorize every spelling rule out there? My answer would be no, but I think it wouldn’t hurt to be familiar with the more common rules.
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