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Grammar – is diagramming really important?
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I have been going over and over it. Does my son really need to learn to diagram sentences? He will never be an English major. I can’t imagine an employer has ever asked an applicant to diagram sentences. If you don’t teach this, what do use use for LA in jr. High (my son is starting grade 7).
Can’t advise as to curriculum since my oldest in only 9, but I just wanted to say that I WAS an English major in college and a major grammar geek and I don’t know how to diagram a sentence. So if you don’t want to teach diagramming, don’t.
OK, I said I couldn’t advise on curriculum, but could you adapt something? I know ABEKA and BJU aren’t necessarily CM, and they do show diagramming, but the diagramming could easily be skipped in those programs and nothing would be lost.
I think anyone who uses English can profit from learning diagramming. Diagramming is logic applied to language. It REALLY REALLY helps when you start talking about the different types of clauses, and how to punctuate them, if you can visualize the pieces of the sentence and how they work together–that’s all diagramming is. A visual aid for sentences. It’s super easy to learn. For middle school, I really like Our Mother Tongue, which does have basic diagramming in it. We do much, much more in my home. Not only do we use it to help us with our English, but it is also really helpful when you get deeper into the grammar of a foreign language.
I have often talked about some of the things I have used diagramming to do. We DO use it to help our children learn important grammar topics, and it DOES help them. I also use it in untangling complicated seventeenth-century prose, and I have even used it to help me understand antecedents in a Biblical passage. There IS no easier way to teach the difference between direct objects and prepositional phrases, IMO. They just pop off the page when you diagram them! On top of all of this, it is just plain excellent for all visual learners, AND it’s really fun for the logically-inclined–like a puzzle. We sometimes have home “diagramming contests” where we take a passage of a song or poem or something and we all diagram it and see who gets the most right. (I think THAT would qualify us all as major grammar geeks.) In short, diagramming is a fun and incredibly useful tool for understanding our language, its rules and idiosyncracies, for improving writing, and for learning how the parts of sentences work together; it is also helpful when learning the grammar of other languages.
I’m liking diagramming, too!! I remember when it was introduced in 6th grade (public school, long ago!! *L*). And I remember how much better I understood Spanish and how to speak Spanish because of being able to understand what a direct object was.
I’d say – teach diagramming. Even a little bit will help. If the student is frustrated with it, you can always just go over it with him and do those exercises together. Or not grade them…or whatever to take away the frustration for him. But definitely, my advice is to teach it.
We haven’t done much at all in terms of formal diagramming, but my younger ds who has much more of a bent for math, logic and puzzles takes to this kind of thing very quickly. My older, hands-on, rather build forts, go hunting, fishing or exploring type finds diagramming tedious and boring. I feel given our current situation where my soon to be 9 year old who has already passed his 12 and 1/2 year old brother in math, spelling, reading, etc., that I am so uncertain about how to proceed. I understand what bookworm is saying, and from reading other posts on the topic I can see an advantage for his writing. We’ve not done much written narrations yet as he has many struggles with writing. We are are seeing great strides that shows he is starting to be ready for more writing — copy work has brought him a long way, but there is still a long way to go. He has gained confidence in writing a few sentences in his science notebook and other occasional assignments. I don’t want to add another difficult (for him) skill in which his little brother will out perform him if it is ultimately unnecessary. I would really like to find more opportunities for this child to work on subjects and interests that allow him to excel.
My oldest never once did diagramming and she has done very well with her writing and her foreign languages in college. She scored a near perfect score on the ACT, without ever having diagrammed one sentence. Everything Bookworm stated is correct. However, I do think that diagramming will greatly benefit some kids and not make much of a difference to others. If I thought it was going to be something that my child would really hate, something that would cause him to dread school time, I would never force it. At least not right now. Why not wait a couple of years and then see where he’s at? I agree with your last sentence wholeheartedly, 4myboys. Just wanted to lend my support to your decision.
If you ever plan on doing IEW writing or learning Latin, both of those are good ways to get the grammar teaching done through the back door so to speak. They don’t even realize they’re learning grammar. I think that my own kids would find the diagramming to be quite easy and maybe even fun now that they’ve learned about different clauses, parts of speech, and such. I do plan to introduce it to them at some point, so I’m definitely not anti-diagramming.
Knowing how to diagram a sentence can really help when you are trying to figure out something Paul was saying in one of his paragraph-long sentences.
I loved diagramming and it reinforces parts of speech which does really help with learning a foreign language.
One thing—diagramming can be a cooperative venture. We did it on a whiteboard–I did the writing, the kids told me where to put things. They’d debate and I’d write it in and they’d debate some more and then if they were stuck or on the wrong track I’d help them. We didn’t really make it a “you compete to learn this” so much as a “Here’s a puzzle, let’s all work together and solve it” kind of thing. No one has to feel bad, no one has to struggle to write anything, just associating pieces of sentences. If you make the sentences really, really silly like we did, it can be a lot of fun!
Bookworm,
That’s how we most often do diagramming –together. I know that not everyone will enjoy it, and my daughter is definitely different than me in some ways. So, to save stress, I’ve resigned myself to the fact that she will probably never enjoy diagramming (I do!). And we do it together. I’d rather her get a little understanding of it and not be opposed to it than HATE it and not ever get anythign out of it.
This is an example of discussion that may result from diagramming sentences with your children and how it can bring better understanding. We did this one during the 2011/12 school year.
http://www.german-latin-english.com/diagrampreamble.htm
Enjoy,
Becca<><
potpourri, I find that there are a LOT of passages in scripture that we don’t clearly understand the antecedents. We often think a verse or passage is intended, for example, to one group, or one group is referred to, but when we unearth the underlying sentence structure, we find something a little different. I can try to find one from my scripture journal later. Yes, when we read we often think we understand something well. Clearly it says what it says, right? But if we dig a little deeper we often find something different. I’m really glad your understanding is good enough to always understand things on one pass through–that’s a great talent! I must just have to work harder, because when I encounter passages in literature or Bible that have a lot of interrupting clauses it takes me a bit of work to unravel them and see what’s really what. My journals are full of diagrammed passages to help me do just that.
As to Paul….we did this one Sunday morning and it was such fun. We had to really look through the sentence and figure out where some of the clauses went. I don’t normally think that I “have a hard time” understanding Paul. But diagramming it, definitely made it more clear. It had nothing to do with the Old English and everything to do with examining the actual structure of the sentence, which diagramming helped us do.
Exactly. You know, it may just be that it is kind of like suddenly getting a real, quality chef’s knife to use in the kitchen when you’d just been using the old things you got at your wedding, and suddenly realizing a really good tool can make a LOT of difference, even in something you are already good at. Language is my strength, too, and I still find a great deal of value in having this tool to use. If you try it, you just may find that you are seeing a few things you didn’t see before.
I also was an English major, and I can’t diagram a sentence. I was taught different symbols to label parts of a sentence.
Subject noun: underline once
Predicate verb: underline twice
Direct object: squiggly line underneath
Indirect object: circle
Prepositional phrase: put in parenthesis
Etc., etc.
I don’t disagree with those who diagram, but I don’t think it’s necessary to understand various parts of speech. I think it’s a personal preference, and my personal preference is to not diagram. My 8th grade English teacher is the one who taught me this method, and I’ve never forgotten it. It’s been helpful to me even as an adult.
Yes, and that’s good
but if you diagram, you are FORCED to then associate each phrase/clause/word with the part of the sentence it modifies. A prepositional phrase can modify a subject, a predicate verb, a predicate object, nominative, or the object of another preposition. If you do this for a while, you can actually sort these things out in your head, and the visualness of what you are doing really helps you to visualize what is doing what in the sentence. So a prepositional phrase is not always the same. It can do different functions in a sentence. You have a deeper understanding of the association of different parts of a sentence if you have to sort this out as well—and that helps you with the structure of your writing and is very valuable as you progress to more in-depth grammar in another language. PLUS it’s fun.Y’all are still just insisting your steak knife is as good at chopping onions as my chef’s knife–but you haven’t tried my chef’s knife yet! LOL It’s hard to judge the power of a tool you don’t use. Try it and see!
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