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? for those with difficult children (especially on the spectrum)
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I’m having one of those days where I’m at my wit’s end. I just don’t know what to do with my daughter. She’s going to be 6 soon, and has high-functioning Autism. Honestly, half the time, I really just want to put her in public school. We don’t do well together many days, and she is very disobedient and defiant with me (well with everyone, but especially me because we’re home together all day, every day) and I don’t have a lot of patience for it.
I just have no idea what to do. I mean, part of it is Autism issues, I know that. And unfortunately I don’t have a magic wand to wave and take that away. And the other problem is, socially/emotionally functioning wise, she is delayed by 1.5 – 2 years, so she’s really only functioning at a 4 year old level. And honestly, I forget what is normal/not for that age. But part of it I think is just her being a brat, plain and simple and I have no idea how to get through to her, or teach her, because honestly – she could care less. There is absolutely NO punishment we can use that is effective, or that she cares about. And I mean none – there is no privilege we can take away, no amount of time out, no spanking, no yelling, screaming or whispering that gets through to her. NOTHING works. All that happens is she loses it in a fit, and then wears herself out. We’ve tried rewards charts too, no help.
Honestly, most of the time, she can be the most loving, affectionate, sweet, caring and helpful little girl in the world – when things are going her way. But, the rest of the time she is downright defiant and disobedient, argumentative, head strong, extremely controlling, manipulative (she’s very intentional about doing stuff sometimes, especially things that bother her brother), bossy, pushy, and competitive to an extreme. She absolutely has to be first at everything, or else she loses it. Here’s an example from today:
She intentionally took her brothers pencil sharpener, and then his seat, trying to get a reaction. He dealt with that (he has his own set of issues and can be a bit anal on things, too, so we’ve been trying to work on him not having to have the same spot etc.. all the time). So, they were both doing their math lesson together. And of course DD finished first because her lesson is shorter. And she immediately starts gloating and carrying on, waving her arms etc… I reminded her that it was not a race, and to please stop. She didn’t. I asked her again to please stop. She didn’t. I took her arms (gently) and put them down by her sides and told her that was enough, to stop it now. And she started bawling and carrying on. And it was the loud fake crying. When she saw it was bothering DS, she did it even louder. I allowed DS to go do his lessons in the living room.
Anyways, I left the room and she carried on by herself for about 15 minutes. She finally stopped, dug out her reading books and said she was ready to be done. I told her calmly and nicely, that that was nice, but that first she needed to apologize to both her brother and I for her behavior Which prompted the next round, she threw a few things, yelled a snarky “I’m sorry” to both of us… and now, here I am.
The long and the short of it is – if she doesn’t want to do it, she will not obey. Period. Or if she does obey, she’ll make as big of a fuss and drag it out as much as possible (like yesterday I asked her to put the dishes away, and she intentionally did it as slowly as possibly, whining the whole time, coming up with excuses) just to tick me off.
And even trying to teach her rules, it just doesn’t stick. It doesn’t matter how many times I’ve told her (and it’s been hundreds upon hundreds of times) to “ask first” before getting into certain things, she still does it anyways. That said, sometimes, I’m not even sure it’s disobedience as much as she just doesn’t think. Sometimes, I wonder about her memory, or maybe it’s focus or attention, I don’t know – I mean, I give her a toy and ask her to take it upstairs and put it where it belongs and I find it in some obscure place. Or, we’ll find her garbage in the bathtub. Or tossed in behind the hamper.
But at any rate, on the disobedience part, I’m just so tired of it. Really, really tired of it. And I’m honestly at the place where I really am considering putting her in school, because I just really don’t want to deal with it, and I just really want a break from her. And yet… I can’t put her in school due to health issues, and I know in my heart, as much as I sometimes want to, it would be the wrong move for her, and us, so… here we are.
So for those who are dealing with spectrum issues – how do you do it? How do you know where spectrum ends and “brat” begins? With her spectrum we do know she has OCD issues, and her health issues have really compounded her “controlling” issues. And, I’m sure her health issues are also compounding her behavior period, because we notice when her bowels flare up, her behaviors flare up. She’s also on a medication that has been linked to negative behaviors. So… how do I know where one ends and one begins? How do I work on her heart and obedience, while taking into consideration issues at hand? How do I discipline with all of this? And how do you maintain your sanity?
I have a daughter who was diagnosed with moderate Autism about 3 years ago! I know there are people who have different approaches to Autism, but we found that diet drastically helped her! Now she is high functioning and many of her issues are gone! We still have issues to deal with so I don’t mean to make it sound simple because it’s definitely not and we have faced many of the same struggles! I just thought I would share that our struggles and hers have greatly diminished with diet! In regards to discipline, we found ABA to be helpful! We do discipline her now because we are dealing more with her now and less with Autism so it is a little more clear! I wish I had more answers for you! It is a hard journey to be on, but God has always been so faithful to us! I know another mom who has medicated her son and she has found that it has made a difference in the short term but over time he becomes more difficult, like you said, with more negative behaviors! I’m always hesitant to discipline if I felt they couldn’t help it! My daughter Emma was barely verbal, in a complete fog and struggled to focus! I knew she was struggling and it wasn’t her fault! She felt bad and it showed in her behavior, some aggravation and a little aggression! Only you know your child! I pray the Lord gives you wisdom as you think through how to approach your daughter! Maybe someone here can offer some advice that is especially beneficial!
Thank you. She was in ABA, but was that was done a few months before she turned 5. And there’s no ABA available after age 5 here 🙁 I know you can do it at home, yourself, but I have no idea where to start? We did find the ABA hugely helpful and it made a big difference in speech, behaviors (we used to have the daily hour long meltdowns, now thankfully she normally (unless she’s in pain from a bowel flare up) only has major meltdowns 1 or 2 times a week, and they’re not as long) etc… She has been accepted to an autism rehab team, but our first appointment (full day of evaluations etc) isn’t until July.
We’ve tried the whole gluten free, dairy free approaches before and unfortunately they didn’t help. I think a lot of her behaviors are tied up into her physical health though. She’s been in chronic daily pain for well over two years now, and her life so much revolves around doctor’s appointments and tests, very little routine to our days/weeks because of them – that is bound to wear on anyone, but especially someone on the spectrum. I get it, and I try to be understanding, I really do, but I’ll admit, sometimes, it’s just hard. I think sometimes I expect too much given circumstances. I know she is so controlling and demanding because I’m sure it’s the only way she knows how to cope with how she feels. But on the other hand – disability, disease or not, I still expect her to obey you know?
This is totally off the educational topic, but my daughter had chronic ear infections when she was little! She also didn’t run fevers like she should have when she had an obvious infection! Her immune system wasn’t functioning at all! I got to know a mom and she eventually shared that her child struggled with many of the same issues earlier in his life! She discovered that her son had a problem with parasites and other viruses (essentially pathogens that the bodies immune system should normally handle)! I started using a few herbs and over time it has helped her so much! In fact, in the old medical literature, the same herbs I am using were recommended! Anyhow, I know you mentioned some tummy issues! My daughter use to have so many sleep issues, lots of fecal smearing, etc…. Lots of tummy issues! We are about to do the GAPS diet this Summer. We went gf,sf,cf first along with dye free! When we eliminated all grains and sugar and made sure no hidden msg was in her diet, she felt so much better and her behavior improved dramatically! She is also not in any supplements? We have found as he things that are in excess in the body decrease, her deficiencies correct themselves! Anyhow, I so know what you mean! It’s so hard to know what is them being rebellious and what is the autism! They definitely need extra grace! We mamas do too :). Let me know if I can do anything for you!
I have a 13yo daughter that was diagnosed with PDD-NOS. In other words, she does have some symptoms/behavior that can be considered mild autism, but not enough and not severe enough to classify as autism. She is generally compliant, although there are times if she wants something, she persists or verbally manipulates, to still try to get what she wants, even after told no a dozen times. She is a pouter. Although it has been difficult making much progress academically, she has been maturing spiritually, for which I am thankful. Much prayer and Biblical teaching is important.
I don’t have anything specific to offer in regards to treatment, although I would recommend not using conventional medicine. As Regan mentioned about the tummy issues, I wanted to mention someone whom you may find helpful. My brother just told me about him this past week and I have listened to a few of his talks, and I have been impressed. He says almost every disease stems back to digestive problems. He is a pharmacist, but is into natural health and nutrition. I googled and found he does have some talks on autism. His name is Ben Fuchs. I won’t give a link because there are several that deal with autism. Hopefully he could give you some insight on something that may help your daughter. I’ll say a prayer for you.
I was just about to get on here and write a post describing the exact situation with my dd9. She has a rare chromosome disorder but is high functioning. I can’t tell if it’s her or the disorder being defiant. I feel like she sets the tone for our whole day and it’s really, really hard. She’ll hit someone if she feels like they wronged her. She does things without asking even though she’s been told over and over that she needs to ask first. We just had a fire in the oven b/c I had it on preheat and I didn’t know that she had something in there “cooking.” We had melting plastic and plant leaves all over the oven. She’s not allowed to use the oven. No punishment works. Any time we have responsibilities it’s a fight. Play time…no problem. We’ve taking away play for an entire day and it still doesn’t register. Chores…she can’t do even the simplest thing without needing major help…this is after a training period. I don’t know if it’s a memory thing either? I don’t know WHAT to do with her. It’s terribly sad. I feel like sending her somewhere will help her but I wonder what it will do to the sibling relationships. We can’t even do the most basic errand b/c she’s uncooperative. I feel terrible writing so negatively about her but I’m at my end. Sigh.
mrsmccardell… I get it, trust me. And I felt the same way about writing things negative, or even thinking negative things… it leaves you with such guilt, doesn’t it? My mother in law especially doesn’t understand. She’s one of those women who look at children as rainbows and unicorns and can’t remotely understand how a mother could ever possibly have a negative thought about their child. I suggest she try dealing with her child in a meltdown at 7:30 in the morning while she’s been screamed at and hit for 45 minutes. 😉 Yes, that’s how our day started today. And I agree, it just sets the tone for the day. I really struggle when the fits happen during lessons because honestly, I just lose all desire and interest in doing lessons then, I really struggle getting back into them, because honestly, sometimes afterwards, I just need to be away from her. Physically away from her, with her in another room. I used to just try and force us to soldier through, but I’ve learned to accept that after meltdowns happen, we both need space away from each other to calm down. If we get back to lessons we do, if we don’t, we don’t.
I do think some of it is working memory. Have you ever had another psychological evaluation done? I know our psychologist said that especially when children are diagnosed young, it’s REALLY important to have more testing done as they get older, because certain issues can’t be screened for effectively until they’re older, but that also, issues can change. We can see that our daughter is really growing into her OCD etc… But then again, honestly, some of it, I think is just a social skill. WE can understand the importance of x,y,z… but they really can’t. So it just doesn’t register to them. And even the idea of doing something nice to help out because that’s what families do… is a social skill that can be lacking and they have to be taught.
My husband and I went to this amazing seminar, it was 2 days back in February, all about the spectrum. And they pointed out that for every excess behavior (such as stimming, meltdowns, defiance etc etc), there are at least THREE deficits causing it – meaning skills.
So for example: the problems of yelling, perservation, meltdowns, rigid etc… could be caused by deficits in the following areas: motor planning, emotional awareness, not knowing how to negotiate or find other solutions, communication, expressive language, receptive language, problem solving, transitional skills, choice making etc…
The therapists really stressed that until you fix the deficits, you will never fix the excess behavior (like the rigidity, meltdowns etc…). And my husband and I sat there, like we’d been struck – because it makes perfect sense! And honestly, I’m so glad I started this thread, I really needed to remember this. BUT, for us, the problem is learning to recognize the deficit skills that need to be worked on. That’s where I really feel we need professional help 🙁 Or learning what deficits are contributing to what behavior, kwim?
I’m sitting here reading through the pamphlet we were given at that session as I’m typing, I’ll just share some random “gems” that were on it… in a reminder for myself, and help for anyone else:
– The goal of intervention is not to control their behavior, but to help the child learn to manage their own behavior.
– Pay less attention to what the behavior looks like (so basically, ignore the behavior) and instead focus on what is causing the problem behavior (why is it happening – what does the child have to gain from their behavior)?
– Reinforcement can be negative or positive. Regardless of what type, reinforcement ALWAYS increases the future frequency of the behavior. So, reinforcing a negative behavior only once, means it’ll happen more in the future. This is where the ABA theory of reinforcing positive behavior and ignoring negative behavior comes in. And we really try to do that – the hardest one though is not engaging when they’re in meltdown mode. It is so hard to ignore a child when they are kicking and screaming and yelling – but it’s exactly what we have to do. Because engaging them, talking to them, trying to negotiate, looking at them etc… is actually giving them attention/reinforcement. To a child on the spectrum, ANY attention, even negative, is reinforcement.
– If we can figure out the reinforcement our children are getting for doing a challenging behavior, we can: 1. isolate the pay off 2. understand the purpose of the behavior 3. predict when it will happen in the future 4. build alternative replacement skills to help meet that need in appropriate ways
– There are four main motivations for behavior: sensory, escape, attention, tangible gain. A behavior can have more than one function and can change according to the situation (so a meltdown can have different functions in different situations).
– Ha! Look at this gem I just found: “For children on the spectrum, punishment has limited usefulness and often requires the parent to increase the intensity of the punishment as the learner gets used to it.” Ouch.
– I remember that they said to first look for deficit skills that could be contributing to the problem behaviors and work on those first. Once the skills have been taught, to really try to work on the behaviors. However, to only work on one or two at a time. And that teaching through reinforcement is the best way (over punishment).
– In the meantime: if the behavior is escape driven: make sure they stay and complete the activity; if the attention is behavior driven do not react in any way, do not look at them, talk to them, explain why the behavior is not okay etc…; if the behavior is for tangible gain, you absolutely do NOT give what they wanted even once the behavior has stopped, EVER; if the behavior is sensory related, eliminate the sensory payment they get for the behavior
– Be prepared that when you start to work on a behavior, it is common for the behavior to increase by 25%, and for their to be aggression as they deal with the frustration of what used to work, no longer working.
– During meltdowns, once the child has calmed down, it is important to resume the task that they were doing beforehand (especially if it is escape behavior)
There’s a lot more, oie. Different ideas on reinforcement, how we can positively use both negative (such as rewarding them by taking away their math lesson for the day) and positive reinforcement (such as letting them sit in their favorite chair for lesson time).
I’m sitting here feeling like a total failure. We were at those meetings just 3 months ago and how much we’ve forgotten already. I admit, I really struggle with not engaging. I have a short temper myself, so when she loses it, I tend to lose it. I definitely need to work on that, and I would certainly appreciate everyone’s prayers as I do.
One thing I know though – school is not the place for her. And now I’m honestly wondering about forgoing academics for awhile, and just focusing on behavior and ASD skills…
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