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Writing & Rhetoric added to a tradition CM Composition program
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I originally wanted to hear from Sonya on this question, and would love Sonya’s thoughts, but would love the imput of other seasoned CM moms as well!
My oldest daughter is 11, completeing year 4 this school year, and has been doing CM copywork since she was 5, and oral narrations since she was 7. She actaully began some written narrations last January, but has been doing them once a week this current school year. This fall in the new school year she’ll begin two a week. She’s a really good natural writer. We also have been working with the writing curriculum Writing and Rhetoric this school year.
My question is this:
Writing and Rhetoric is a complete writing program designed to cover most of the students life, beginning around year 3 or 4. It really is an excellent program, and, having her use it, I am completely confident she’ll have a thorough understanding of all writing dynamics by the time we finish. HOWEVER, she hates it, mainly because all the exercises in the book tire her hands. She does well with it, but, with us doing CM composition exercises daily, like cw or dictation with Spelling Wisdom, and, several oral narrations daily with one written each week, I feel it’s almost overkill adding in the Writing and Rhetoric. In my heart, I feel it’s overkill, my momma mind is just wanting to be sure if I drop it, that the true CM methods for writing will be sufficient. I do see where Sonya suggests starting in year 5 to begin introducing different writing styles into the written narrations. I feel since I wasn’t a very good writer in school, that I’ll somehow fail my own children teaching them more naturally on writing. Is it ok, and quite enough, to just use the CM methods for writing all the way through high school? If I drop this Writing and Rhetoric, will my children eventually miss something crucial that would disable them later on, say if God called them to college, and they had no clue how to “properly form” some sort of writing? I would love to just drop it, simply because I feel it would allow that natural room to strengthen her written narration skills even more, but I guess I’m wondering if there are other CM mommas out there too, who have seen the full circle of CM’s writing methods come to and, can say with confidence they are enough.
I am thinking about ordering the new narration book in hopes that will help build my confidence and round out our narrations here, but I wasn’t sure if questions like this one are in the book!
Thank you so much in advance!!
Stacy MI’m interested in that, too. I was thinking of adding Writing and Rhetoric next year. I loved writing and all things grammar. I’m trying to find the right way to add them into our homeschool.
I’m not familiar with the Writing and Rhetoric course, but judging from your description, Stacy, it does sound like potential overload. You’re wise to recognize the symptoms that are showing in your daughter’s attitude.
I’ve read and heard from many experienced CM moms lately who are confirming that Charlotte’s approach to writing is enough. (Wish there was an easy way to transfer that reassurance your direction.)
Not wanting to push a resource here, but it seems like the Your Questions Answered: Narration book you mentioned might help since it doesn’t add more to your schedule, it simply shows how best to use the powerful tool of narration that you already have in place. I think the rubrics in the book, especially, would be helpful to you; they would demonstrate how much your daughter actually knows about writing (giving you more peace of mind) and give you some guidance in helping her continue to improve at her own pace.
Since she is 11, you have time on your side. Don’t stress out. It sounds like you have been laying a strong foundation during the elementary grades. Trust the process. You’re barely halfway through yet. See how much growth you notice over the next 4 or 5 years. By that point, you’ll have a better idea whether she needs to learn certain formats for college work. If so, she can easily learn them then. But keep in mind that you’re dealing with two different things: (1) thinking deeply and putting those thoughts into writing, and (2) arranging that writing in a certain order and structure. The first is much more important, and takes much more practice to master, than the second. Reading good living books and doing narrations from them encourage deep thinking and good communication of those thoughts. Keep that staple a high priority; any college preference on formatting those thoughts can easily be addressed later as needed.
Hope that helps a bit.
Sonya, I’m curious and need to ask you directly … Are you saying that these formal writing programs and formal grammar/mechanical skills programs are unnecessary in a properly executed CM homeschool? That was always my impression, but reading the forum it seems a lot of folks are using some type of formal language arts or composition program (Jump In, IEW, Language Arts through Literature, Lighting Lit, Excellence in Lit, Lost Tools of Writing, etc.) in addition to oral and written narrations.
Thanks for the clarity.
I’m curious as well. It does sound like the teacher was supposed to be able to do the vast majority of writing instruction through written narrations, copywork, and dictation – but that assumes the teacher knows what needs to be taught! When you don’t know grammar beyond noun, verb, adj, adv, and have no real idea why commas are used where they are, only that it looks right in certain spots, I don’t think you will get your child beyond your own level without some help. Similarly, I’m not sure I would be able write the various styles of papers there are to learn – or even be able to identify them if I saw them. I’m sure I could have at one point, but again, I think a parent either needs to significantly brush up their own skills or seek outside help! That help will probably look different for different people. Since most of us were not given a CM education or anything even remotely close to it, I think it’s reasonable to expect that we will need assistance as we learn and grow with our kids in areas that we are weak in. Hopefully we do want to learn though! And even though I will need some major help with dd8 in the coming years, by the time my fourth is that age, I’m hoping I’ll need much less assistance. 🙂
I think that the reason a lot of moms (myself included) feel compelled to add in these writing programs is due to the fact that we, as mom and teacher and wife, have to do it all. Claire asked, “Are you saying that these formal writing programs and formal grammar/mechanical skills programs are unnecessary in a properly executed CM homeschool?” I think that question has a key phrase – “in a properly executed CM homeschool” that we must consider. While I know and absolutely believe in CM methods, I don’t feel like I can properly execute them right now. This is a time in our lives where I simply don’t have the time to sit with each child, going over written narrations daily, giving input and gentle correction, etc. When my oldest was a student, I did have that time. And she is a wonderful writer. We did not use a formal writing program other than half a year of Writing Strands when I freaked out during her 4th grade year. She never did a spelling program either. I could take the time to properly execute her lessons. Right now, the oldest is in college and I have 5 kids I’m schooling, from age 6 to age 14. The truth is I need a crutch right now. And that’s what writing programs are to me.
I am anxiously awaiting Sonya’s response. I would love to hear what she has to say about this.
Good question:
Are you saying that these formal writing programs and formal grammar/mechanical skills programs are unnecessary in a properly executed CM homeschool?
I think writing and grammar resources can be helpful if used well. As with so much curriculum, a lot depends on the Why, the How, and the When of our using it.
The Why: Are we using it because we think it will be the magic bullet that will answer all our concerns and work wonders with minimal effort on our part? Are we using it because we think it is expected by others whose opinions we have resounding in our ears? Are we using it because we’re afraid of what will happen if we don’t? Are we using it because we believe it will be a good fit for this particular child and help him or her to keeping growing?
The How: How does this resource approach the topic? Is it consistent with Charlotte Mason principles for teaching this subject?
The When: How important is it that my child use this resource right now? Is that timing consistent with CM principles for teaching this subject?
It makes perfect sense that all of us would look for resources to support our weaker areas of teaching. None of us knows everything about everything. And if we can find resources that are consistent with Charlotte’s principles and methods, it seems like those would be very helpful in giving our children a quality CM education.
Sonya,
Thank you for your response. It really helped concrete for me, what my heart was feeling, what my husband was telling me to be true, and what God had begun to give me peace over. I do feel that, looking back, we have made outstanding growth over the years, despite my many runnings of this way or that way, trying to “add to” the CM ways, either out of others opinions that made me doubt my choices or, by my own lack of faith, really, that God will truly supply all they will ever need! I’m not knocking any mother on here who chooses to, or not to, use “extra writing curriculums, by the way 😉 I just can see that using CM’s methods aren’t really outdated, and while some things must be accomodated to our modern world, like typing, when we have just stuck to the quality of it, and not adding so much extra quantity to, CM really does work.
I have already seen room just this week, where we can now begin to focus more in depth, not more in time, on the simple, yet, truly effective ways of narrations, written and oral. I think I had actually gotten lazy, persay, with the pre-readings, and some of the other important mechanics of The Art of Knowing, because I did feel like the other writing program would “pick up any slack” on my part. I know, and have been there, in the seasons where there doesn’t seem to be time to “tend to these details” in a “perfectly executed CM education”, however during those times, I had a great friend remind me that CM wasn’t teaching her own children, and she wasn’t running a home while teaching, and that God’s grace is sufficient in ALL we do, and, He will fill in our gaps! And, He really does 😉 And, He covers it all, however we try to do it. I have seen this week, on letting go of the extra writing program, for my daughter and I, that just focusing on the CM principals will suffice. I have gone back to re-read the free book you offer, Sonya, on narrations, and, it definitely helps to refresh my knowledges during the school year. It keeps me focused, and encouraged, and I did order the Narrations book and, will use that as well. I’ve also looked ahead to see where you include those tips on what kinds of writing styles to work on in the upcoming years under the Language Arts for each grade level. While I don’t know all of those styles perfectly, or how to construct them or teach them from scratch, I do know now that once we get there, God will supply our every need. It will take some work on my part in order to pass those skills down to my girls when they need them, however, I know it will be ok. Sonya, your response reminded me as well, to slow down and, take it one year at a time, and to trust the process!
Thank you so much, Sonya. Your knowledge of Charlotte Mason is such a tremendous help to me as I go through the years. Thank you for spending your time in this mission to promote her philosophy of education. I grow greatly in the philosophy by hearing your gentle reminders.
Reviewing your questions was an excellent exercise!
I’m very interested in this topic, because I, too, wonder if I can really use CM narration methods to raise good writers. I really want to believe that I can, but I don’t hear many other voices saying that. I very much appreciate Sonya’s blog series not too long ago about “Raising the Bar” on narrations for high school, and I have the e-book she wrote on narration — very helpful with the different types of narrations to ask for at different levels.
Another voice that has encouraged me to stick to using only CM methods is Linda Fay’s website, Charlotte Mason Help. She has terrific advice there about Narration and composition; particularly helpful to me are the articles about waiting to teach formal composition until high school, and the one entitled, “How I Raised a Professional Writer Without a Composition Program.” I highly recommend them!
At this point with my 9th grade daughter, I’m having her write daily narrations, correcting them and editing them as she’s working through the free online grammar and writing guide suggested in Linda Faye’s high school composition article. (She’s already read Strunk and White’s Elements of Style.) Periodically, after my daughter finishes reading an entire book, I have her write a paper answering an essay type question about the book. My problem is coming up with great questions to ask. I’d love it if someone would list out great questions and narration prompts for each chapter of some of the recommended high school reading from CM websites like SCM or Ambleside. Now that would be lovely!
I’d also love to hear from more of you moms who are using narration as THE primary writing program throughout your homeschool, particularly high school. Maybe you’ve figured out what kind of narration questions to have your kids write on. Ideas welcome!I wanted to chime in that we are using LLATL for a few reasons. I think sticking closely to CM methods can be very successful, but I personally felt we needed something to keep me consistent. With 5 kids, I didn’t feel like everyone was getting the time they needed and I struggled to plan it all and execute my plans. I like that LLATL still uses many of CM methods, but requires very little planning on my part. I did add a writing program this year for my oldest because she struggles getting anything on paper! I know a big part of my failures with narration-only were inconsistency on my part. I still try to add in some narration with our history, science, and read-alouds and it is included a bit in their LA lessons.
Apberry,
I have these ideas printed on notecards and connected with a binder ring. That way I can flip through them to find a narration prompt that fits the reading. https://simplycharlottemason.com/timesavers/narration/
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