Was Charlotte Mason in fact a classical educator?

Binky,

I have to confess I don’t know a lot about VanDamme’s own philosophy. I was using her article for her critique of modern classical methods but that in no way implies that I support her own position. My impression was rather that I would not like her view any more than I like that of the classical educators she reviews.

VanDamme’s article was the best one I could find for a somewhat thorough review and comparison of the different classical methods out there. I was really surprised at how little else I could find that wasn’t very biased. VanDamme of course has her own position to promote too but her reviews did seem fair and even-handed.

The methods I quoted Van Damme on are not Christian but secular classical methods. I guess they are objectivist though I don’t know a lot about it. Obviously, as a Christian it is a view I reject. My argument with VanDamme’s criticism on Christian classical ed as not being independent would be that no thinking is independent. We are all taught by someone, whether a live person or a book. We absorb ideas and opinions from all around us. I do not believe there is truly independent thought. To provide kids with a Christian framework to their thinking is no more biased than to provide them with an atheistic or natualistic one.

I guess my final thought would be that I am not basing my opinion of classical ed on Van damme. I already had an opinion of it and VanDamme was just the best source I found to quote on it. I guess the bottom line is it is good to be aware of the biases of the people one reads and quotes but I have no real problem with taking some ideas from and quoting someone that I don’t agree with overall. I am more concerned about the fact that it is so hard to find good analyses of classical and CM methods from solid Christian sources. My object in my series on hmeschool styles is to begin a discussion of what is behind the different methodologies so that we can know the assumptions behind what we teach our kids and how rather than just accpeting someone’s methodology wholesale without understanding the real ideas behind it.

This is a very good discussion and I am glad you raised it. I think I will post those reply on my blog as well in case others have the same questions.

Nebby

Nebby,

I agree with you that there is not much out there comparing the methods, I believe that is probably why we both came upon this lady’s article. But as I read her article and researched more about her philosophy it made me question her stand on education in general.

I was using ” classical ed” for my children this past year and was not completely satisfied which is why I was researching. I have some wonderfully Christian friends who use christian classical ed and love it and the ones who do “CM” use sonlight. I do not know anybody using true CM. I wish I did but I feel that this forum helps fulfill that void. I really wish I knew what method is really the method that God designed for our kids to learn by but I feel that as a Christian that as long as I teach my kids to “seek first the Kingdom of God” that maybe that is all that matters and method is irrelevant. Maybe God handles the rest. Maybe each family chooses what is “best” for their family. I was listening to a talk one day by the author of MFW and he said that the Hebrews taught reading for the sole purpose of being able to read and study God’s word. It really made me stop and think ,as you stated in your blog, why am I educating.

To get off topic a little, I have been looking at and researching the older educational styles put out by dollar home store called eclectic educational series(including the McGuffeys series, Rays math, Thalheimers history, etc.) where most everything is taught from a Christian perspective before the time of the John Dewey public school era. Very interesting learning style. I think some of it may be outdated due to technological advances but maybe not. I think our brains are going dead from too much technology:) I am considering buying there sources just to read through the material to see what I think of it as an educational style. As much as I would love to take my kids back in time I don’t know how it would resonate with them.

Thank you, Nebby, for your thoughts and comments. I am new on this journey and still trying to find my way with God’s help and guidance!

Binky

Binky, I know of lots of classical homeschoolers who do not use WTM.  There ARE explicitly Christian classical resources.  Here are my favorites:

Christine Miller, of All Through the Ages fame, has had a plan up that has influenced me since I began homeschooling:

http://www.classical-homeschooling.org/

The Bluedorn family has written a book, Teaching the Trivium, in which they claim the three “stages” are in fact the Biblical stages of knowledge, wisdom and understanding.  I recommend this if you are interested in the subject.  Again, it influenced me far more than WTM.  Here is their site:

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/ 

You may also want to check into the writings of Andrew Kern, Tracy Lee Simmons, and Andrew Campbell.  Specifically The Latin Centered Curriculum, Climbing Parnassus, and check out the CiRCE Institute.  http://www.circeinstitute.org 

Last but certainly not least, there is Martin Cothran at Memoria Press.  He publishes the Classical Teacher which is part newsletter, part catalog.  You haven’t really dipped your toes into Christian classical unless you’ve read him.  He is specifically Christian in his understanding of classical education.  http://www.memoriapress.com

The classical education world is actually a pretty big one; I haven’t even touched on specifically Catholic resources yet.  I can dump those on you too if you are interested. 

Michelle D

I’m sorry, binky, I called someone by your name, I was talking to “nebby” but the middle-aged circuits remembered “binky” instead, sorry!  Duh!  I still call my kids by the right names (MOST OF THE TIME

Veritas Press is also good for Classical from a Christian (reformed) perspective.  My friend’s daughter takes many of their online classes, using their Omnibus program.  It’s pretty rigorous.  As a 7th grader, she does school 5-10 hours per day. Gina

Tukata,

I think a big part of the problem is that “classical” is used to cover a lot of things. Real classical education means the model used in the Middle Ages which in turn was supposed to be based on ancient Greek and Roman education. When people say CM was classical, they are comparing her to that Middle Ages method and form what I hear she had a lot in common with those thinkers.

But there is also the mdoern classical movement which came after CM (se she can’t really be judged by it). It was revived with Dorothy Sayers and is best known through the Well-Trained Mind today. It also sought to revive what was going on in the Middle Ages but from what I can gather it also changed things or at least emphasized some aspects more than others. So I have heard it said that the 3-stage process of facts, logic, rhetoric which WTM is known for would not have been separated out like that into 3 distinct phases in the Middle Ages.

My post on (modern) classical ed is here:

http://lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/approaches-to-homeschooling-classical/

Nebby

Nebby (and others too!) – I get a little squeamish when I read that classical is going back to the Middle Ages which then goes back to Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome…weren’t they all based on pagan systems then?  Why as Christians are we going back to a pagan source for education?  (I’m not accusing anyone…I’m really asking)…Also, I haven’t gotten to the Middle Ages in our hs yet (and I was ps myself) so I don’t know much about the Middle Ages , but why would we want to emulate them? Anyway, I just got a “red flag” in my mind when I read this about classical education.  I do agree that CM is very biblical in her philosophy as already mentioned by many of you, and in reading her own writings (I’ve read Vol 1,2,3, and 6 in modern English). I’m just trying to sort this out in my mind – if she IS classical and if classical IS based on a pagan system, then what? 

IS there a “Biblical method” of education?  I read the Heart of Wisdom Teaching Approach and I did love a lot of it, but I am not convinced in her use of unit studies as being Biblical. 

Thoughts?  Please?

Honestly, for several years, I thought CM was basically unschooling or lots of unit studies.  The truth is that CM and those methods really have very little in common.  In fact, the more I’ve read and learned, those methods seem almost the antithesis of what a CM education is.   I think this is where the need to call CM “classical” comes in – kind of a knee-jerk response to that mistaken idea that I had and that many others have had.  I think of CM as taking all of the good things from the classical education model and making it God-honoring.  (I don’t know if that makes sense to anyone but me, but that’s how I think of it.)  If I were pinned down into what our method of education is I would say Classical/CM just to give people of today’s era a description that conveys a certain meaning.  I do use many of the so-called classical resources available today because they do seem to be based upon the same principles of CM.  I am very choosy and careful because I don’t ever want to use resources that are not God-honoring or that are not based upon the supposition of my child being a whole creature who needs to be wholly educated.  

I do see some truth in the Dorothy Sayers classical education model and in the three stages of grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric.  I guess the difference for me would be that I want to be filling their grammar-stage brains with memories of big ideas, heroic people, and beautiful things, rather than filling them with lists of kings of England.  

My point in all this is that we need not reject everything that is called classical and we need not embrace everything that is called CM.  I, for one, love the Writing with Ease and Writing with Skills curricula from Susan Wise Bauer and I see nothing in them that is not in harmony with a CM education.  On the other hand, I really did not like using PLL or ILL which are considered to be one of the must-have’s of a CM education.  

I hope nothing sounds offensive in this post.  If it does, it is not intentional and is not meant as a rebuttal to anything that has been previously said.  I’m really just trying to work out and articulate these things for myself more than for anyone else.