Name: Spreading the Feast Gathering
Start: 2025-07-11T00:00:00-05:00
End: 2025-07-12T23:59:59-05:00
Location: LaGrange, KY

Tagged: attachment, Attitude toward others, Behavior, disrespect, Parent-child relationship, parenting

This topic has 21 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 11 months ago by HiddenJewel.

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July 2, 2014 at 1:26 am
amama5
Participant
How to make this short enough for the forum?! I have 6 kiddos 10 and under, 3 are strong willed, but of those three my 8 year old is beyond strong willed, she is defiant, extremely rebellious at times, hateful to us and her siblings. She can be very sweet, and a hard worker, but most days are just a constant battle from the minute she gets up. I have cut out problem/allergy foods, I try to avoid certain things that may trigger her, but we have to still do life with our rules and our schedule, our desire for our family life. She has consequences for disobedience/disrespect, as do the other children, and I stick to them, but most of them just anger her even more. She ends up having to stick with me most of the time so I can head off the unacceptable behaviors/speech patterns before they start, which she doesn’t like either because I can’t play games/do puzzles all day long:) We have a tri-level split house so I’m always on the small main floor in the kitchen, while the kids are in the play room downstairs, or upstairs in their rooms playing.
I am worn to a frazzle trying to keep up with her and still tend to my other children and homeschool, manage the home. I am so ready to quit homeschooling, although I won’t because I know it’s the best thing for them and it’s not an option. The other children are miserable around her because she’s constantly making faces, saying hateful things, being a bully physically, etc. She freely admits she doesn’t like them, and says they don’t like her and she doesn’t care. She enjoys hurting their feelings or making them cry. If you try to discuss her behavior biblically she doesn’t care either, and talking about the logical path she’s headed down with her choices doesn’t phase her either, just makes her have a “bring it on” attitude.
A friend had suggested calling Focus on the Family because they will give you counseling once for free over the phone. The advice given over the phone was not something I can do or agree with, such as; lock myself in my room if she’s following me speaking in a defiant tone/words. I’d love to some days but with 5 other children that’s a bad idea!:) I was advised to read and strictly follow the methods for several weeks in “The Well Connected Child” (about adopted children with behavior/attachment issues) and Losing Control and Liking it (more for teenagers). The first one had a lot of repeating your commands, which we don’t do in our house, especially with an 8 yr old, they know how to obey the first time and that’s how we define obedience, not hearing me say it two or three times, more firmly each time. The book also was huge on always giving two choices, “do you want to walk yourself or do you want me to carry you?” I can’t always give choices, many times it’s “Get into the car, it’s time to leave”, or “Please get your school-work done respectfully.”
I don’t even know exactly what I’m asking, I guess I’m just wondering if anyone has done things like this, or something different with success? I know only God can change a heart, so I can’t do that and don’t expect to, but I do need things to change at home for everyone’s sake. and so I can continue on without being depressed or discouraged all the time.
Thanks, sorry so long!
July 2, 2014 at 3:04 am
coralloyd
Participant
Sorry things are so rough right now. I have a very strong willed girl so I hear your frustration. I would start with your relationship before anything. If you can ask your husband if he can stay home with the others so that you can take her out for some one on one time. Find out her love language. My daughter sometimes just needs a hug to calm down as a reassurance that I love her. Physical touch is her love language. Also asking gently what exactly she is so angry about reveals that sometimes the anger stems from something completely different than the current situation. She has a tendency to hold onto things until it comes out the wrong way. She is not my talker so patiently digging out what is going on with her, on a regular basis, helps to defuse any ticking time bombs. There still needs to be discipline but focusing on relationship and communication is probably the best place to start. Strong willed children that feel understood and happy can be the most pleasant human beings in the world.
I guess the very best advice anyone can give is to pray. You and God know your child best. He will give you the wisdom you are seeking. I will pray for you today that you will have clarity (hugs).
July 2, 2014 at 3:44 am
anniepeter
Participant
Mmmm, my heart goes out to you. I can certainly relate to this. My experience with my oldest son (second born child – I’m assuming that may be your case also – is often a rebel) was very similar. And I can’t say it passed quickly. There’s an awful lot I still don’t know. But I’ll throw out a couple of thoughts and questions (and truly that’s all I would call it), and I know you’ll get good ideas here.
How is your husband helping/dealing with this? Does she behave the same way when he is there? Sometimes this can be a clue. Could you catch her doing some things right, and be sure to offer appropriate praise? Sometimes these children truly believe they can do nothing right, and there’s no sense trying. And why shouldn’t they feel that way if/when that’s the way they are treated? (And I was guilty of that at times.) Are you loving this child unconditionally – and does she understand that? Find ways to make deposits into her emotional bank account. She has obviously drained her account with you (she’s done a lot of withdrawing and you’re really feeling it), but unfortunately, you’ll just have to suck it up and make the best of it. Her emotional bank account is probably way overdrawn too. You’re likely going to have to really come down hard on her to get this licked, but do all you can to say (and do) positive things to her as much as possible too, and find ways to let her know that you love her and have confidence she can be and is better than what you’re seeing at the moment. We do tend to get what we expect. You know the warnings about needing to be sure we have more positive interaction than negative…and I’m sure that seems impossible now…but do what you can to correct that. With my son, I finally came to the realization that as a young man in progress, he desparately needed to feel that I respected him. And hard as it seemed at the time, I did find that with great effort, I was able to give him that. Deposits! With a girl, that will be different…maybe she needs to be assured and reassured of your love, since that is a woman’s deep need. Maybe you could occasionally even single her out to do something special with you (a walk, a cup of tea after the others are in bed…) even though she doesn’t deserve it. Seek to understand her. Maybe you can get into her heart that way. You probably need to win it over again somehow.
As far as coming down hard…I guess I don’t know what to say. This is not my strong point. You’ll get better thoughts from others. But what I have learned through my mistakes, is that it pays not to escalate the issue and emotions. I used to feel like I had to win. And I still do to a point. But I’ve made the mistake of more or less fighting in order to win…escalating it to the point that it sears awful memories in our brains that are very hard to overcome. There are better ways, I know. But I can’t say I’ve learned them yet. I’m still trying. I am trying to learn to take action to stop the immediate problem with as little talk as possible, and then wait for a calmer moment to discuss and act further with stiff consequences if necessary. Hopefully someone else can speak more to that.
Sending up a prayer for you…
July 2, 2014 at 12:54 pm
caedmyn
Participant
Have you seen the website http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com ? I think some of the information there might be helpful to you. There’s a book by that title too but I believe the whole text of the book is available free on the website.
July 2, 2014 at 1:56 pm
vikingkirken
Participant
What coralloyd said!!
Besides making her feel more loved, quality one-on-one time may help her develop better communication skills. It sounds like she might have trouble relating to her siblings and you–she may be dismissing people saying she “doesn’t care” when really, she does not have the social skills needed to connect with them in healthier ways. Some kids don’t naturally figure that stuff out… My 8yo daughter is naturally a compassionate, gentle soul, while I have had to walk step-by-step training my 5yo son in exactly how to interact with people. I didn’t realize his attitude stemmed from basic inability until I started asking him “why” a lot (“why did you hit your brother? why did you break their toy? why are you yelling at me?”) and got a lot of genuinely frustrated, tearful “I don’t know!!!”s.
July 2, 2014 at 3:25 pm
Wings2fly
Participant
If you need help finding your daughter’s love language or how to show love in other ways, The Five Love Languages for Children by Gary Chapman has been a good read for me. They have one for Teens too. There is a kindle combo book.
She may need tomato staking, in Raising Godly Tomatoes, where she is with you all day and you can go about your activities still. It is free to read online. Edit: She “gets to” go around with you all day.
July 2, 2014 at 3:38 pm
curlywhirly
Participant
Hi amama5, I can hear your frustration in your post. Just so you know where I am coming from I will tell you a little bit about my family. I have 4 kids, three of whom would fit our society’s definition of “strong willed”. I prefer Charoltte’s Weak Willed. All four have “special needs”. When my older kids were young (oldest is 26) my attitude toward discipline was much like yours- “Just do it when I say so!” I was also very opinionated that kids don’t have ADHD, etc. they just need to get outside and run around more. I tried everything to get an obedient result and I “outlasted” them no matter what the cost so I wouldn’t be “inconsistent”. Still, life was very difficult and I was dismayed at the character issues we still saw daily. Needless to say, 26 years of parenting have changed some of my opionions. 🙂
For my older kids it took some seriously dangerous behavior and a psychiatric evaluation around age 12-13 and then medication before I saw any improvement in behavior. I would be a liar if I told you everything was rosey after that… but it *was* better. Despite their issues both my sons have grown up to serve the Lord and generally behave respectfully toward me and society.
My hubby and I have adopted two younger kids as well. As I learned about the specific issues inherent to adoption and attachment I came across the Connected Child books, videos, etc. I do thinks they are the best all around parenting advice I have ever seen- not because of the methods but because they look at the whole picture. Just like with schooling, methods alone do not get to the real goal, its the principals behind the methods that will get you where you want to be.
Look at the big question of “why is my child behaving like this?” as well as the need to obtain obedience. Depending on what issues are going on inside the child it can be impossible to gain obedeience without addressing the why.
If you are a Christian you can look at it this way, we cannot truly obey Him until we have recieved the grace He sent through His son, Jesus. When our children have a problem they cannot solve themselves *we* have to deal with their problem with grace (they certainly havent “earned” our help) before we can expect them to learn obedience.
So based on my experiences I respectfully offer some things to consider as to why your daughter may be acting this way. If these areas are a problem and are addressed you may see some improvement in obedience. Please don’t feel obliged to answer publically as I know these are very personal areas. If you want to PM me I would be happy to talk more.
- Consider a mental health evaluation. I would suggest going to a major university for the evaluation rather than a community clinic to get the best eval. If there are mental health issues in other family members (Aunts Uncles Cousins, Parents, etc) this would be especially important.
- Consider attachment problems. If your child is adopted or had medical problems or other things that could have disrupted the process of attachment when she was 0-3yo consider looking more into the Connected Child. You may not feel you have time to wait for the child to decide to obey, but Love is Patient. It may be an area you need to grow in so you can help your child.
- Make sure she feels loved. With one of my older sons in particular his behavior was so difficult all the time and I was a single Mom struggling to survive that I often didn’t make time to make sure he felt loved. I was so frustrated with his behavior I sure didn’t feel like loving him! He needed to feel loved though, so he could eventully do better. There is a ton of information out there on Love Languages. A quick search should turn up plenty of resources.
July 3, 2014 at 12:41 am
amama5
Participant
Thank you for the encouragement and honest advice. I know I am very weak in some of the suggestions mentioned. I think her love languages (and will check out the book for more specifics) are time and affection. I am not a very affectionate person, although I try to be, it’s just the oppposite of how I grew up and it doesn’t come naturally at all. It’s even harder to show affection to someone who, as said above, “drains my account” so quickly in the day, so I know I constantly need to work on that. She craves alone time for hours with me, but it’s just not realistic with 6 kids. I have been trying to work on a puzzle daily with her alone, which she really enjoys. I also know I’m too perfectionistic, although I’ve really loosened up on many, many things but I’m sure some damage has been done there.
She is the second in birth order, she was born difficult/stubborn/rebellious, although we didn’t have any attachent issues in her early years. She is the same whether it’s me or my husband, and thankfully we are on the same page, actually both at a loss but on that same page:) I am also very thankful it never comes across to adults/kids at church, or at co-op, although with one grandmother who sometimes has extended stays with us she can cross the line often.
Love is patient, but I don’t think that means you can’t expect a child to obey immediately, especially when there are 6. If I gave each of them repeated commands we would never be able to go anywhere, or get anything done at home. We have lovingly, patiently trained them to obey cheerfully and right away. My other children are obedient when we give a command (command sounds harsh, but I just mean daily things like cleaning, getting in the car, etc) so I feel she needs to be held to the same standards of obeying immediately. She obeys very well when she wants to, it’s just on a day when something sets her off, like this morning she was angry that I corrected her b and d reversal on her spelling word (even though I do it super quietly and gently because she’s embarrassed about it), and then she can’t get out of the hateful/defiant pattern the rest of the day.
I appreciate the advice and prayers, and knowing others have been there too, sometimes it seems as if most people have very meek spirited children, and I do have some of those thankfully:) I will look into the book about Love Languages. Thank you all
July 3, 2014 at 1:09 am
Wings2fly
Participant
I am not sure how this might work for you, but I notice a difference in my daughter (my second child) when I go lie next to her in her bed when everyone has gone to bed and the day has ended. We talk briefly and I hold her hand or hug her. Sometimes I fall asleep for maybe an hour and then go to my bed. Sometimes she goes to sleep and I get up. It is not every night, but on occasion. You could plan the same night(s) each week though. It works well because it is the end of the day and easier to find the time, and I get rest then too. She gets quality time, words of affirmation, and physical touch (3 of 5 love languages).
This is along the same line, from Sally Clarkson:
http://www.itakejoy.com/closing-each-day-with-a-blessing-the-intentional-routine-that-opens-hearts/
July 3, 2014 at 1:19 pm
anniepeter
Participant
Wings2Fly – that is a wonderful idea. I think I need to use it with my next son. As the 4th child and a boy 5 years younger than next up, but the oldest of the younger set of kids, he has an interesting combination of 1st, 2nd and middle child traits. I don’t necessarily put a lot of stock or study in them, but I do find it helpful to think about “problems” in the light of how sibling relations/pecking order, etc…may be affecting things.
amama5 – that’s something else I was thinking about. I know in our family, the attitude and acceptance or lack thereof from the oldest has made a HUGE difference to the younger ones. I have appreciated (although I REALLY struggle with his delivery) the message in “The Influence of Older Children on the Younger” by Davis. When they feel condemnation from the oldest, it just makes everything so much the harder. I don’t know if that’s an issue in your family, but it is very common, I guess, and we did experience it, and it continued to be a concern until the oldest left home. She is for the very most part a wonderful influence and help to them, and hates that about herself, but it is very hard to curb/fix permanently – especially when the oldest truly does a better job of complying and doing the “right” thing. We did see improvements though as we helped her to become aware of it and gave her ideas of how she might be a better help to the younger ones. For what it’s worth….
July 3, 2014 at 4:40 pm
Angelina
Participant
Wait a second – there is a whole BOOK on “The Influence of Older Children on the Younger” ?!! WOW!
My DH and I are constantly, constantly talking about this issue. Our eldest is definitely the “do the right thing” kid. I am working with him constantly in terms of having more compassion for the younger ones, less condemnation, as you say above. In any case, the whole issue has most certainly had an impact on our second son (we wonder often the extent to which it sparks his rebellion), but we have been basically just swimming through deep water on how to work on this.
What do you mean by your comment that you REALLY struggle with the author’s delivery? Is the book extremely psychological or hard to follow?

July 3, 2014 at 10:22 pm
anniepeter
Participant
Think “prodigal son”. And there are other places it plays out significantly in the Bible…and I’ve noticed it many times since the thought was planted in my mind.
Angelina – I pm’d you. Here is a link to his website (I think it’s his). https://www.solvefamilyproblems.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Influence  It is a recording of a workshop I once heard at a hs conference in MN.

July 4, 2014 at 1:44 pm
vikingkirken
Participant
One simple thing that helps my son with obedience is if I touch his arm, tip his chin, or otherwise physically break his focus on whatever he’s doing before I ask him to do something. He gets tunnel vision and often literally doesn’t hear me if I don’t do that… which predictably leads to conflict as I get frustrated and eventually lose my temper, and he is suddenly snapped out of his deep focus by an angry mom bearing down on him, with no clue as to why I’m upset.
Also, you mentioned her being angry about you mentioning the “b” and “d” reversal–was she mad at YOU, or mad at her MISTAKE? You said you’re a perfectionist, did she inherit that trait,..? It is extremely frustrating to be a perfectionist kid who hasn’t developed skills as quickly and perfectly as she thinks she should–and she might be really sensitive about her mistakes being pointed out, because she takes them SO seriously. Would it help to encourage her to check her own work if you see mistakes? Like, “Are you sure you wrote that word correctly? Take another look…” It’s less embarrassing for them if they catch it “themselves”. Also lots of encouragement ala “What would have happened if Edison gave up the first time his lightbulb didn’t work? Mistakes are nothing to be ashamed of, they help us learn and improve our skills.”
July 5, 2014 at 12:26 pm
jeaninpa
Participant
Kids who have attachment issues are scared and need to feel in control. I have had to learn how to parent differently with my adopted children than with my bio kids. Even though your daughter isn’t adopted, she does show some classic attachment issues. Trust and control are big things for these kids.
Some things that helped with our kids: To build trust sometimes you need to back kids up chronologically. Even though as an 8 yo, she is capable of many things, you could try babying her a bit. Think about some of the things that you do for younger children (maybe help them get dressed) and do some of those things for her. Providing food, even spoon feeding is a huge way to build trust. (I know it sounds ridiculous.)
Don’t show negative emotion. For one thing, kids who are unattached want to be in control and enjoy illiciting reactions from people to prove that they control things. If she can’t get you to respond, the gig is up and she sees that she can’t control you with her bad behavior. For another thing, these kids feel so unworthy and getting people to respond negatively to them confirms to them their unworthiness.
I can understand your hesitance to repeat commands or to give choices. I wouldn’t be a big advocate of repeating, but when you give choices it helps her to feel some control. You just need to get get creative with how you give choices so that either choice means that she obeys.
July 5, 2014 at 3:07 pm
JenniferM
Participant
This has been such a helpful thread. I don’t have the same difficulties as the OP, but I often struggle in my relationship with my daughter, who is the oldest child. Thank you for the reminder of the Love Languages, Wings2Fly, as well as the link to Sally Clarkson’s post. My daughter and I took the online love language profiles yesterday, which was enlightening. Jeaninpa, great information . I appreciate the wisdom and advice found here at SCM.
Amama5, don’t lose heart. Trust God and seek Him. I was reminded this week that God is always with us in our storms, and He is bigger than any storm. James 1:5 “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask if God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.”. We are not promised an easy life, but we are promised God’s wisdom.