Tomato's with Older ones

Well, I can’t specifically respond to the Tomato staking part. I just want to give a heads-up to you to that many of the remarks made by the children against eachother and you are manipulative; they want their own way andwill manipulate and/or bully their way in order to not be held reponsible. The “you don’t love us, you don’t trust us (which is correct they haven’t proven this), this is terrible, what are we going to do all day, you’re so mean, etc etc” are just for them to try to gain control over the sitution and make you back down-manipulation to avoid being personally responsible.

How are you disciplining the language and words when this happens? Perhaps you should write down the consequences for reoccuring problems, to help keep things consistant and so they know what to expect. That way you don’t have to make a new decision every time a behavior pops up.

So my best advice is, again, to get the Boundaries books-there’s one specific to marriage and kids. They will help you develop discernment concerning what’s a legit position and what’s manipulative. The staement from your 12 yr. old is classics manipulation and diversion of responsibilty; it’s like a theif who breaks into your home and tells you-“I wouldn’t have to steal if you just gave it to me so it’s your fault that I’m stealing”. Do you see how twisted that is? I don’t think you’re going to get very far until you can discern the manipulative cylcle and the lack of taking responsibiltiy that exists. Also, try not to get angry over it either-don’t take it personally. They want you to get angry and get flustered-you don’t think as clearly when you are and they’re are in control then. This is hard due to the cycle-they’re used to things being a certain way and generally you know that if they are being held responsible now, they’re behavior will get far worse before it gets better as you break the manipulation cycle. The BOundaries books deal with the condition of the heart before G-d, taking responsibility, recognizing control issues through manipulation, anger, victimhood, and more, and how to recognize it within yourself and in others; how you’re completely responsible for your own emotions and responses and how to handle that with others.

This is going to take a while, I think. But it can improve. You’re going to need frequent times of prayer, a woman or women to talk to on the phone daily or several times a week to pray with you and encourage you because your not getting the support in the home. You will dry out and things will return to the cycle. Not trying to be a downer, just honest about the reality of trying to do this alone-I don’t believe it can be done without staying connected to the Vine and having the external support, which I assume you have set up for yourself since you have a Congregation you belong to.

Please keep us updated and I hope soeone can address the other parts of yourquestions.

Still praying for ya’ll, Rachel

You are making a wise decision to invest in your children by committing to training them “in the way they should go”.  Remember that you are not doing this exclusively for your own sake, but because your children need to learn to respect and obey you as “practice” for how they respect and obey God. 

Don’t be discouraged by failures of the past.  God’s faithfulness is new every morning! 

That being said, let me encourage you to drop everything from your schedule that you are able to and focus exclusively on re-training your chilren.  Then you should zero in on one thing at a time.  For instance, the manner that they speak to you.  Focus on having them respond to you respectfully.  Remind them several times a day.  Reinforce your reminders with Scripture verses about honoring your parents.  Make sure they are clear about what that should look like.  Pray with them.  Keep them close to you and do fun things together.  They will test your bondaries, they will try to make life miserable.  Don’t let them.  Be the one in charge.  And when you feel like blowing up at them, remind yourself to be a strong parent.  Sometimes when I feel like blowing up I remind myself that if I was in a crowd of people I could have self-control and not lose my patience with my children.  Therefore I am capable of self-control and I need to exercise it even when no one is watching (except my children and God). 

Pray often,

Jean

Your attitude is of greatest importance here.  Not just “not getting angry”, but one of true joy and happiness.  Win your children with your smile.  They must know that you actually like and enjoy them as a person. (Which you may be doing, but I wasn’t sure and it’s so necessary)  Also, fill them with the truth.  When they make comments about your not loving them, talk to them about how this *is* an act of love and that it would actually be unloving of you to let them continue to be mean and uncaring towards each other.  Any time your oldest makes rude or snappy comments or yells in anger about something talk with him and show him how he is wrong, or his attitude is wrong, and help him see the truth. 

To be honest, I never could get the hang of tomato staking.  I had some of the same questiones and issues that you mentioned, but with only 3 children, and I could just not make it work.  After literally years of trying, I finally gave up and let it go.  That is not to say it’s not a good system, nor that you should stop trying it.  But just to say, it’s not the only system, nor the only way to raise up children who are a joy and a blessing.  There probably is no single parenting philosophy that I could point to and say “that’s what I’m doing”.  I had the same issues with my oldest daughter, who is now 13, as you seem to have with your son.  The two things I mentioned above were what turned her around and changed her.  Love them like crazy with a truly joyful heart and smiling face, and replace the “lies” they tell themselves (“I never get to…” & “You always…” etc, etc) with truth.

When you say that your husband is “just angry”, do you mean he is angry about this parenting method, or just an angry person in general?

We aren’t ‘tomato stakers’ but we do generally all stay together, all day long…working together, playing together, learning together. For other things (getting ready for the day, getting ready for bed), the kids are partnered-up, buddy-systemed…whatever you want to call it. Even during those few times a day, they still squabble. We also have QT/Naptime all separate, which is a daily bear for me. It’s a constant, hard, 110% job, this parenting thing!

DH and I were at our wit’s end a few months back, and read ‘Shepherding a Child’s Heart’…it has totally changed the way we discipline. Really, it has changed the way we do most of our parenting. Here is a link:

http://shepherdpress.com/product.php?productid=16134&cat=0&page=1

I will add, from experience, if both Mom and Dad are not on board, working together…it fails. I, too often, let DH do the disciplining, and started to grumble to him, “They won’t listen to me…” That was hogwash…I was doing a lot of talking, not acting, and the kids knew I didn’t really mean what I was saying. But Dad did. (I’m working on the ‘doing’ part).

And yes, my entire family takes on MY attitude…I yell, they yell…I yell a lot too. I’ve learned it’s mostly when I’m tired, or hungry, or have been paying too much attention to things outside our home (phone calls, computer, etc), and I would take the fact that we were ‘behind schedule’ out on the kids. I learned from the Duggars’ book, to lower my voice to a whisper, instead of yelling. Hard at first, but makes a huge difference. I HATE yelling. My mom yelled. I didn’t want to yell.

And breathe. And pray.

But the book will help. I’d let you borrow our’s if I could. DH and I joke that for now on, as wedding gifts, we’re going to give a Bible, Family Driven Faith, and Shepherding a Child’s Heart.

Kathi

After I left my parents nest and went to college, I started to realize my lack of respect for my mother. When I spoke to her or saw her I was always stressed out and we would often end up being rude to one another. I justified this by blaming her for her yelling, blaming, and drinking will I was in her home. After I married, my husband told me that the command to honor my parents was not based upon them deserving it. This opened my eyes up and I began to honor and respect my mother because God told me to. After I quit blaming her and falling into the same rut, I could love, respect, and forgive her more fully.

Something else that I remember from childhood. Is we used to tell her we hated her. I cannot believe that I used to do that now. It was one of the only ways to get her to stop nagging us when she was drunk. There has been about 3 times in my mothering that my children have said that they did not love me. Each time I told them that that was not true (I knew because I still loved my mother). That I knew that they love me and understood that they were upset by whatever it was. More often they have said that I was being mean. I kindly say no I am not being mean your father and I make rules….  for your betterment. Sometimes it to protect you and sometimes it to help train them to be more godly adults.

Something that I have learned from Charlotte Mason is to respect the child. The other ladies have given good advice on that in explaining the changes to your older children. Something else that Mason and Sonya has shown me is that we are to look at disiplining in the light of working as a team with our children to conquer our bad habits instead of working against one another. The child is not our enemy, but the bad habit. These are things that I am constantly having to remind myself about and going back to the Lord to give me the strength to do it. One passage I say to my self over and over and pray for the Lord to help me with is   “Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, ………     “

I have noticed many times that when I react in anger or accusations my kids always react back to me in the same manner. When I react in love, understanding and doing things in the light of Gods truth often things are smoother (Not always). Another verse that I cling to in my parenting is “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” Philippians 4:13        

I’ve just been reading a blog that had some great entries addressing this issue of disobedience/lack of respect and older children and wanted to post a link to it:

Love Empowers Some Simple Tasks