60-day returns • free shipping on USA orders $129+
Thoughts about CM on Teacher Prep at the High School Level
- This topic has 19 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 7 months ago by
.
- Posts
In Vol. 3 of CM’s books, Charlotte says:
“The teacher’s part is, in the first place, to see what is to be done, to look over the work of day in advance and see what mental discipline, as well as what vital knowledge, this and that lesson afford; and then to set such questions and such tasks as shall give full scope to his pupils’ mental activity.” (pgs. 180-181)
I have some questions. First, I notice in this quote that she mentions “set such questions and such tasks as shall give full scope to his pupils’ mental activity.” I’m wondering what this looks like in your teacher prep in general, but especially at the high school level? What types of questions do you think she is speaking of here? What about the tasks? Are we talking about looking through the reading material and jotting down open-ended questions designed for discussion? And what is she meaning by “tasks”?
Second, I notice in this quote she talks about looking to see what “vital knowledge” is to be found in the lesson and then jot down questions to help give the student full scope for his/her thinking. She continues discussing ways to use books like the student jotting notes in the margin, underlining, having the student write down a few questions on their reading. Then she says to be careful that these things “do not come between the children and that which is the soul of the book, the living thought it contains.” (pg. 181)
Can anyone share their thoughts on this? How do you apply this principle in your teacher prep at the high school level?
I am bumping this up as I am wondering about this as well. Sometimes it seems like we are not supposed to get in the way of the students’ interacting with the text, but when is it okay to say – this is alliteration, or that is iambic pentameter, etc. Narration questions seem so open-ended, but this quote seems like the questions might be more pointed? Thank you, Mrs. K, for bringing this up as I am curious also.
Great questions! Here are some thoughts to contribute to the discussion.
The context of the quote on pages 180 and 181 is that the children must do the work. Straight telling-back narration is one way, but we can encourage them to do more as they get experienced: “generalise, classify, infer, judge, visualise, discriminate, etc.”
It seems like the description of the teacher’s part may be related to the oral lessons, examples of which are given in the back of that volume (pages 328ff). In the introductory note to that section, Charlotte gave this reminder:
Though the part of the teacher should, in a general way, be that of the University tutor who “reads with” his men, the oral lesson, also, is indispensable, whether in introducing a course of reading or as bringing certain readings to a point.
She also used the phrase “a channel for free intellectual sympathy between teacher and taught, and a means of widening the intellectual horizon of children” and emphasized that
These lessons are always expansions or illustrations or summaries of some part of the scholars’ current book-work.
And on page 229 she gives the stipulations of “to introduce, to illustrate, to amplify, to sum up.”
You can see examples of questions, tasks, and points drawn from readings in that Appendix V. Each oral lesson gives the age range, so we can find the ones for older teens pretty handily.
In her Educational Manifesto, on page 214 of the same volume, she lists “too many oral lessons” as a way to destroy a child’s love for knowledge. So I would think we should not try to come up with some kind of task and questions for every reading. It seems best to use them sparingly when they will increase the student’s understanding/discernment of what she is reading.
I see nothing wrong with pointing out various style names (alliteration, iambic pentameter, etc.) as they arise as long as they do not become the main focus of the reading. I was just reading an interesting book in which the author cited currently-used teaching methods that focus only on the skills of “dissecting” a piece of literature. The ideas contained in the literature are secondary or ignored in favor of practicing the skills. That would seem to me to be a way of coming between the children and the soul of the book. As long as our oral lessons are few and far between and are used to increase the child’s interest in and understanding of the readings, we should be on the right track.
It’s interesting, I didn’t necessarily equate the teacher’s part solely to the oral lesson. I equated it more so with the idea that the students are to do the work; but that there is a definite teacher’s part as well… all in the context of choosing good books, the student doing the work, narration, and use of books. Does that make sense?
I am just now reading through Vol. 3. Thanks for pointing me to the other pages you mentioned. The examples of oral lessons in the back are great! I also went to page 214 and read about “too many oral lessons.”
Wouldn’t this teacher’s part line up with the instructions she gives elsewhere about the method of a lesson? I’m also thinking about an article I read called “Is Sequencing and Ordering the Curriculum Important for Scaffolding” found in the Charlotte Mason Educational Review. Here’s the link:
http://www.childlightusa.org/review/Winter2007_Review.pdf
The article is on pg. 8.
Any thoughts about what is presented in this article?
Very interesting article! Thanks for the link. Yes, it does make sense that the principles and practices could be applied to the method of a regular narration lesson too.
Sonya,
I found the article very interesting as well. It seems to me that at the high school level, one could follow this six step narration process but that it might look a little different than the way it would be done in the lower levels. Don’t you think?Yes, I would think so. Especially in a homeschool setting, where we are encouraging our high schoolers to do quite a bit independently. I wonder how it would work to take it on a week-by-week basis in books that are sequential. Maybe look over the readings for the week out of that book, draw key points out and list them, then at the end of the week review all the student’s narrations and have a discussion of any points she didn’t mention.
I was wondering the same thing. I actually was thinking along the same lines as what you suggested. What I’m wondering though is if it would be better for the student to do some oral narrations throughout the week and then maybe do one written narration on the entire chapter at the end of the week. The reason I wonder that is because this morning I was reading in Vol. 6 about the benefits of continuing oral narration…it helps students develop their speaking skills. Plus, their end of the chapter written narration could be done in various formats…compare/contrast, personal opinion on a topic covered, etc. Any thoughts?
Something I am working on right now, is I am making myself my own teacher’s guide of sorts for my daughter’s world history book that includes all my notes on each chapter, any vocab. words that may be unfamiliar to my daughter, and disccusion/narration points of key events and ideas that I want to talk about if my daughter doesn’t mention them in her narration. That way, each week, I can read through my notes to refresh my memory of what is covered in the chapter; I can mention the vocab. words for my daughter to look up if she needs to; and then I will already have the key events and ideas jotted down to go over if my daughter doesn’t mention them in her narration.
I find this thread extremely interesting, but would love to hear how someone actually did this in real life. I feel like, although having an excellent, rich CM education in their younger years, my olders did not have an equally rich CM experience in their high school years because at the time I honestly could not keep up with the level of involvement and follow-through that’s being described…amidst the other necessities of that season with caring for babies, preschoolers, an ill spouse, LIFE, those high school years did not unfold the way I wanted or envisioned. My olders did fine, maybe even great by most standards, but it could have (read: should have) been so much more.
Even your comment, Sonya, about going through on a week by week basis to draw out key points, review all those narrations, discussions, etc. — that takes much more time to do it well than I would have thought — and having those discussions at a level that goes beyond elementary narations but really moves into much more critical thinking, compare/contrast from previous readings and knowledge, etc…this is where I feel I really fell short. Yes, some of that did come out in written narrations, to be sure, but I do not feel they were challenged on this to the level that they should have been.
Sorry, not trying to be a downer here, just sharing my reality and not wanting to repeat that with my younger crew coming up. The failing was my own, and circumstances change, but I would love to hear some real life examples. 🙂
ETA: Mrs.K, we must have been typing at the same time. 🙂 Love your teacher notes book you described. Also, I realize I did not finish reading the linked articles so I’m going to go do that (obviously probably should have done that before posting. lol)
“The teacher’s part is, in the first place, to see what is to be done, to look over the work of day in advance and see what mental discipline, as well as what vital knowledge, this and that lesson afford; and then to set such questions and such tasks as shall give full scope to his pupils’ mental activity.” (pgs. 180-181)
“what vital knowledge, this and that lesson affords” might be considered step 1 of the narration process?
“set such questions and such tasks as shall give full scope to his pupils’ mental activity” might be part of the grand conversation? Still open-ended questions (not yes/no answers) but more specific and more of them?
I think sometimes I get confused because I know that CM is so different than the way that I was schooled (boring texts, multiple choice/short answer questions, learn for the test mentality), but other times it feels too “hands off” because of this quote: “do not come between the children and that which is the soul of the book, the living thought it contains.”
I guess I have a hard time finding that balance: giving direction without being heavy-handed…not sure if I expressed that exactly the way I’m thinking it.
Thank you all for your thoughts.
Yes, this is very interesting to me, as well, as I have a high school student who is NOT a strong reader. Trying to feel as if I am giving him a good/great CM education is tough. He is incredibly independent but I have no clue if I’m challenging him enough and able to offer high school level discussions. *sigh*
Do I think he is experiencing/exposed to more than I did at his age, in all areas, yes. Definitely, but I still just don’t know. I’m not wavering on the CM education, just in my abilities, especially with his reading skills. But that is in another thread, LOL.
Mysterious Lady in Pink,
Last year was a huge learning year for me with implementing CM’s methods. This teacher’s notebook of sorts for myself is something I feel would really help me tremendously for our history this year. I also found that it was helpful if I could have the schedules all typed up and ready in advance – preferably for the year or a semester at a time even. And then if something has to be changed along the way, it’s easy to change it on the computer and then print it out.Thank you, Mrs K, for sharing your experiences.
And this is where the number of children at different levels really becomes a challenge for me. If I taught the same level year after year (like ps teachers) then you really have an opportunity to KNOW the material and refine and improve.
But I feel like it is just hard because, while I love learning right along with my kids, I end up feeling like the guy who is spinning all those plates, each plate atop a long stick, and he keeps running back and forth amongst the sticks/plates trying to keep them all spinning so that none of them drop and smash into pieces. It’s crazy and exhausting (albeit quite the laughable spectacle, I’m sure, lol).
Sonya, in one of your previous comments you said:
I wonder how it would work to take it on a week-by-week basis in books that are sequential. Maybe look over the readings for the week out of that book, draw key points out and list them, then at the end of the week review all the student’s narrations and have a discussion of any points she didn’t mention.
So, would you maybe use the Module 6 grades 10-12 booklist (since I have a number of the books
) and share how you would apply what you share in the comments above? Does that make sense?
) and share how you would apply what you share in the comments above? Does that make sense?- The topic ‘Thoughts about CM on Teacher Prep at the High School Level’ is closed to new replies.