Name: CHEC Rocky Mountain Homeschool Conference
Start: 2025-06-12T00:00:00-05:00
End: 2025-06-14T23:59:59-05:00
Location: Denver, CO

Tagged: Early Years, preschooler

This topic has 36 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 9 months ago by Shannon.

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July 10, 2011 at 12:58 am
missceegee
Participant
Bookworm’s point about short statements is very true and we do this as well. I don’t put these statements in the reasoning, explaining category as they are simply statements of facts.
Also wanted to ditto what she said about disciplining kids being a kindness. It is out of love that a parent should discipline. Thinking of the friends in your example, is it a kindness to allow the children to run amok and do as they please for a number of years and then expect them, without training (or even with training) to just “get it” and behave appropriately when they are older? I would say that not only is it not a kindness, but it is also an unreasonable expectation.
July 10, 2011 at 2:31 am
suzukimom
Participant
Bookworm….
Do I have teenagers?
Yes and No… lol.

When I married my lovely dh 10 years ago, he was a recent divorcee with a 17yo, 15yo and 11yo in HIS custody. And NONE of them were happy about me… oh, and he had just joined our church a month before we met, and only one of his children joined (and she has since left the church.) So I have experienced teenage years with kids that absolutely hated me, did not believe the same things I did, had had their dad recently change what he believed, etc.
I am certainly hoping that the next bought of teenage years is not quite that stressful!
July 10, 2011 at 11:40 am
dmccall3
Participant
Yeah… Intellectually I know disciplining is a good thing… 🙁
July 10, 2011 at 12:12 pm
RobinP
Participant
And God says that if I don’t discipline my children, I really hate them. Discipline doesn’t have to mean harsh. It is simply teaching them and bringing them up in the way they should go. Sometimes it does mean a firm reprimand, sometimes maybe a spank on the “hiney” or time out, or whatever, and sometimes it’s painful, but children who are not disciplined (discipled) will end up hating their parents because they know that their parents really hated them. I run a pretty tight ship around here. My dad did with me. He expected obedience and he got it, one way or another. But not for a minute did I doubt my dad’s love for us. He would tell us (as I tell my boys) I expect this because I love you. If I didn’t, I would be hating you. God expects obedience and, more seriously than disobeying me, my boys are disobeying God in doing so.
It’s hard…I know.
July 10, 2011 at 2:11 pm
dmccall3
Participant
Ah that’s good. I need to remember that and that kids can grow up in a loving relationship with their parents. I come from a messed up, abusive home so I get confused. Sigh…
July 10, 2011 at 4:45 pm
poodlemama
Participant
A 3 year old is developmental incapable of reasoning. Really! I didn’t believe it until I tried the Piget taskes with my 4 year old (look up Piget Conservation on you tube to see what they are) . My 4 year old couldn’t get that there was the same amount of milk in the tall glass as in the short glass even though she had just seen my ten year old pour it from one glass to the other (and back and then again, and again, and again– my 10 year old REALLY wanted the 4 year old to “get it” LOL) Anyoe who can’t understand that the glasses are the same can not be expected to understand the logic of “you’ll be tired in the morning if you don’t go to bed now”. Now is not the time for reasoning! The most developmental appropriate way to get complince from a young child is positive reinforcement for doing what you ask (reasoning can come later– starting at about age 9).

That my 2 cents
Lindsey (who has a 10 year old, a 7 year old, a 4 year old and a degree in behavioral psych)
July 10, 2011 at 6:24 pm
Bookworm
Participant
Well, there ARE some issues with Piaget and what he was really assessing. And kids are all different. My middle son messed up a speech path. and a developmental psychologist in a language assessment when he was three. He WAS using deductive reasoning. They asked him a question and gave him three answers and he said “Well, I know it isn’t this one, and I know it isn’t that one, so the right answer must be C.” They ran out to the waiting room and got me and brought me in. They kept telling me he was developmentally incapable of doing that. They were convinced I’d lied about his age (he was also very tall). Important point–kids are already persons, they are individual, and while there are COMMON developmental patterns, there are also tons and tons of outliers . . . Kids develop reasoning skills on their own timetables, just like they develop skills like walking and talking. And I know kids do things at whacky times because mine did! So there ARE kids that you can say “You need to go to bed or you will be tired tomorrow” and they will understand. The catch is that this alone won’t convince them to do what you want, as they may or may not yet have the ability to make themselves do what they ought . . . and they learn this from basic discipling. They need the basic discipline FIRST, and then later where appropriate you can use reasoning in some situations as they get older. Charlotte recognized this too, in her discussions of habit training. She recommended just simply training the good habits when children were quite young. But with older children, she pointed out that you needed THEM on your side, you needed to discuss the problem with them and work on a plan together and both of you implement it.
July 10, 2011 at 7:56 pm
dmccall3
Participant
Thanks poodlemama. Can you give me some ideas of positive reinforcement for say… being still and quiet at bedtime or eating dinner (instead of playing around) at dinnertime? I’d love to hear more about positive reinforcement especially if that’s the best way at his age! 🙂
Thanks again!
Dana
July 10, 2011 at 7:58 pm
dmccall3
Participant
Thanks Bookworm! I should go back and read CM’s writings again. That is ringing a bell…
July 10, 2011 at 11:22 pm
poodlemama
Participant
Dana,
Honestly I have been AMAZED at how effective praise and attention work with kids. I’m a dog trainer who trains with food and I’m constantly telling people that praise is not enough for their dogs so I almost couldn’t believe how well it works for kids. Kids crave attention so much that if you really pay attention and “catch them doing right” it’s usually all you need. Praise is so easy because you always have it with you and can always use it! The key is not to reward behavior that you don’t want to see again and for so many kids mom’s attention is so important that even nagative attention is better then no attention. It’s so easy to get into that trap because it’s the bad behavior that irks (sp?) us and that we notice. We as the parent have to get ourselves in the HABIT of watching for the good behavior. So for some kids (not all but a lot) if you are constantly telling them “sit still” “don’t play with your food” “be quiet” you are actually reinforcing the behavior because that is what is getting the attention. Instead train your self to notice that one instant when he is sitting nicely and praise “look how nice your are sitting, thank you so much” “love that you are eatting your peas!” I have read that you should give at least 4 times as many positive comments as you do negative comments. ANYTHING you want repeated, tell them how much you like that behavior! And on the other side of the coin. NEVER, NEVER allow your child to be reinforced for disobedience. When you draw a line in the sand don’t back down just because of a temper tantrum. Expect the tantrum and recognize that a tantrum now is an opportunity for you to show that you stick to your guns (parental backing down is very powerful reinforcement for the child–“Hey I got my way, I have control”). Be calm, be firm and praise like crazy when they do good. In addition to praise I will also use TV time (“Thanks for doing such a great job cleaning your room now we have time to watch some TV!”) bike rides, trip to the park, games, snacks (set things up so that nap time is followed by snack time etc.) extra stories, ANYTHING that the child likes can be used as positive reinforcement, but always pair it with praise! And again look for things that might be reinforceing bad behavior.
Hope this helps
Lindsey
July 11, 2011 at 2:42 am
dmccall3
Participant
Great that does help! Thanks!
That would definitely take getting into a new habit! But I’d love to be more positive and less focused on the negative!
Now that temper tantrum thing is hard! I hate to see him crying and upset even about consequences for his own decisions that I have given him multiple opportunities to “choose right” and avoid. The other day I was crying for no reason (I’m pregnant) and he kept saying, “Stop, Mommy, Stop.” I asked him if he cries and he said yes. I asked why I couldn’t also cry and he said, “You don’t like it when I cry either.” I realized then that if he ever wanted to manipulate me he’d know to cry. I don’t know at what age he could intentionally cry to get his way (in other words, intentionally manipulate) but I’m guessing we’re getting close to it. Gulp. So this would be a big area of growth for me because when he gets upset I let him “try again” instead of experiencing the consequence I had just assigned.
Interesting discussion…
July 11, 2011 at 2:50 am
funfamilyof7
Member
This is a great post! We try to line our ways up with the ways of God. Even if the little ones dont fully ‘get it’ they will. Looking at their hearts, and prayerfully trying to guide them in the ways of our living God! The foundation if you will, for our parenting ways, and actions are:
1) In learning to listen to your parents, it will teach you to listen to God
2) Obey 1st, understand later-many times God will lead us to do somthing that doesn’t make sence to us, The same is true with kids (why cant I run after my ball?: Because Mommy sees a car coming that you dont. Why cant I eat the meat before it is cooked? Makes for a great learning op, but they really need to obey BEFORE they understand) PROVERBS 3:5-12 5 “Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.
3) “If you love me, obey my commandments” John 14:15 This is an issue of the heart. Our love for God propells us to want to obey Him right? Now, of course this does not mean that a 3 year old lacks love for his Mom if he disobeys, but we should work on their hearts, not only their actions. When my kids disobey, they endure the consequences (for disobediance, they will not ‘get out’ of a punishment because they ‘now’ want to lisen on their terms). True obediance, is not on ‘thier’ terms. My goal in the disipline is to work on their hearts. I want to help them yeild their will, but not break their spirit. After EVERY punishment we hug and pray, they ask forgivness, and also (when I am leading the prayer) I will have them pray with me, thanking God that Mommy and Daddy love them so much that we teach them right from wrong. Trying to cultivate their love & respect, for us and God helps them in the long run to choose obediance. A great way to cultivate that love and respect for us is to keep set boundries, with clear, consistant consequences, we are not yelling, or angry, but teaching them in love. Children (some more than others) test their limits, because they feel more secure when they know theur boundries! You are showing your kids (even at 3) a great love by being consisstant, lovingly firm, and clear.
4) With Obediance Comes Blessing. With disobediance comes sorrow-and eventually repentance. This is shown all over scripture. Our children learn this with natural (related) consequences, and compassion from us the parents. “I am so sorry you made the choice not to eat your dinner, I really wanted you to have a happy tummy for bed” Or “I am so sad we are going to miss our trip to the park today, I hope next time you’ll listen to me & get your shoes.” Certianly the reverse works…”I am so very proud of you! You made a great choice in going to sleep on time last night, now you feel good, and well rested, I think we should play a game!”
While some of my childern could understand reason, others could not at 3…They all learn great from experiance-hence related cosequences. At this age we are largely laying the foundation for later years. Be encouraged, keep on disciplining, it will pay off! If you wait, because they ‘dont get it’ or cannot reason it out yet, the lessons will be 100 fold harder in later years-and will not come so naturally.
You may like to check out 1) Parenting Is HEART work is great 2) ‘love and logic’. 3).The way they Learn 4) The “IF THEN CHART” http://www.doorposts.com/details.aspx?id=14 Again, laygint he foundation, be encouraged, they understand more than we think, and learn fast threw repitition, and expericance.
>As far as the explaining goes, we do talk to our children about anything and everything they want, but not in the moments of disobediance. I also found that these natural consequences, consistantly given with a loving and kind tone, teaches them so much more in the early years, than trying to explain it…
PS please forgive my many type-o’s I am super sleepy!!
All the Best!!!
July 11, 2011 at 3:06 am
suzukimom
Participant
yes, they can intentionally manipulate you by age 3 or so (from 2+ depending on the child….)
I have to just comment on the multiple opportunities to “choose right”…. if I understand what you are saying, it can make things worse.

I remember an instance when I followed through on a consequence after giving a few warnings on it. This was with a scout, and my (then new) step-daughter was also there. She ended up being extremely upset because she felt that I wasn’t being fair to follow through on the consequence when I hadn’t previously but had only given warnings. (and this didn’t even direcly involve her.) It was like a light turning on in my head…. she couldn’t connect the consequence to the behaviour BECAUSE of the extra warnings. To her it was like I just randomly did something mean. I’m not sure I’m explaining it right…. but to her….
Saying “If you do this, than I will do this” was fair IF and ONLY IF the first time the person did it, I followed through.
to her
“If you do this, then I will do this” (the person does it…) “I said don’t do that… this is your final warning, if you do it again, I will do this” (ther person does it, and I follow through….) to her that was random, I was being totally unfair, and shouldn’t have done the consequence. It was unfair because how was the other person supposed to know that i would really do it when I hadn’t done it before.
Honestly, she was upset for hours over it. It really opened my eyes to how she saw things. Most people, even most kids, wouldn’t have a problem with it…. but in her mind it worked differently.
But in a way, she was right. I had already informed the person of the consequence, I should have followed through right away.
I don’t know if I’m explaining it right…. but in any case, giving multiple chances doesn’t help at all…. and for some children the way they think, even one extra chance will turn the consequence into some arbitrary punishment that you decide on, instead of a result of their action. It takes the cause of it off of them (and the learning to do better) and places it on you (mom’s mean).

July 11, 2011 at 12:19 pm
poodlemama
Participant

I would say giving mulitple “warnings” or “chances to choose right” and not following through is a form of habituation. In other words you teach the child that your warning don’t predict anything relevent to the child. Technically speaking a warning should be a discriminating stimulus (something that predicts that a behavior will be followed by a consequence) if the stimulus occures repetedly with out the consequence it becomes meaningless. Thus the punishment seeming unfair. Some kids may learn to actually push to see how far they can go. But I think for most kids, because they have become habituated to the warnings, they don’t even hear or at least comprehend what was said–it isn’t relevent to them. So if they are then punished on the 3rd of 4th occurence of the behavior a) they have now ingaged in the behavior 3 or so times and recieved whatever natural reinforcement the enviornment is providing and b) might literaly have no idea that you had asked them to stop that particular behavior (they probably know you are unhappy just not why you are unhappy).
We offen teach kids “the wrong” discriminating stimulus. For instance parents who count to 3. “Stop throwing sand! 1…2….3” The word 3 becomes the discriminating stimulus and kid doesn’t even START to repond until 3. (Do you really want to have to count to three every time you ask for something?) My mother-in-law has a great story of my sister-in-law at about age 3 or 4. Appently she had told Paige a few times that it was time to go and Paige had not responded. Eventually my mother-in-law said in a stern voice, “Paige…Paige…” And Paige said to her playmates, “I have to go my mom said ‘Paige, Paige.'” “Paige…Paige” had become the discriminating stimuli instead of “time to go.”

July 11, 2011 at 12:34 pm
dmccall3
Participant
Aaaaahhhhhhh… That’s a great example… Yeah I’ve totally gotten this wrong. I’ve tried to be much better today – and I have – until the naptime tantrum. The actual big tantrum scares me a bit. I did make him calm down before I gave him another try but that probably isn’t good enough. I lay down with him if he’s still and quiet but leave the room if he’s not. He was sooooooo upset at me leaving the room… I needed him to fall asleep and knew he wouldn’t in that state so I ended up making him calm down first then I went in to try again. That time he was still and quiet anyway… But this makes total sense that it doesn’t seem fair and that he’s just used to waiting until I’m *really* serious. Hopefully I can change my ways! I really appreciate the help!