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Questions about SCM math
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Hello,
I’ve posted several times before here asking advice about our family’s struggles with math. My 5th child is now ready to start math, and after reading reviews and watching videos about SCM math, I’m interested in trying it with her to see if we can get off to a better start this time. I have a couple of questions:
1.) Does it really take about 20 minutes to move through one lesson? Is there much additional prep time needed? How long does one whole book typically take to complete? I want to give my daughter a better start in math than her older siblings had, but as we are already struggling with enough time to teach all the kids and typically don’t finish everything we have scheduled for each day, I’m worried about taking on a program that requires more time commitment.
2.) Is is possible to “group teach” with SCM math? My older kids are all struggling. I’ve quit math programs and started a new one at the kindergarten level several times over the years, hoping to get a solid foundation from square one, and it has never worked out. Everyone is several grade levels behind and still not doing well. They are frustrated and discouraged. I’m thinking about having the whole family do the first SCM book together as “group math” and then have the older kids continue in their own books where they are, hoping this might help fill in their understanding and make them more successful without starting from scratch yet again, and without giving me 5 kids to teach one-on-one with a new program. Would that be feasible, or does this program really need to be taught one-on-one?
3.) Is the DVD necessary or would the book and the videos available on the site be enough? Or even if not absolutely necessary, would it make a big difference in my success as the teacher if I had the DVD?
4.) I’m curious about how this program would work with a learning disability? We are looking into a professional assessment and suspect some type of learning issue with my 9 year old boy. He struggles a lot in math, reading and writing.
5.) Any other information that would be helpful to me in making a decision? Especially how has this program worked for really busy moms of large families?
Thank you!
I just finished up using book three with my struggling 6th grader. I did not use the videos at all. It definitely helped her because it is very much parent/teacher taught. She now says she loves long division! She does still struggle with quick recall of facts, but that’s something that will only come with more practice. We use Xtra Math for math facts.
I do think one on one is best with math, unless you have very math kids. However having five kids that need to be taught makes that tough. How old is the oldest? Are there math concepts that they are competent with? I would hesitate to start from the absolute beginning with all of them again. I even struggled with starting with book 3 for my 6th grader. She did grade 3 Math Mammoth last year. However we were able to go more quickly through things that she was comfortable with, and take more time with new concepts. We actually finished the book in 4 months (Sept-Dec), and have just now started book 4.
With the exception of my 4th child (7 year old) my kids are very poor and struggling math students. I started with Golden Press workbooks in K with my oldest. For year two of school I tried MCP math, starting again in K, since it was recommended by most homeschool families I knew at the time and she hadn’t learned much besides 1-10 from the previous year. After two years of struggling through MCP, she was completing 1/2 a page in 2 hours and I started finding papers with “I hate math” laying around the house. I decided another switch was in order. I researched a lot and tried Professor B math, advertised as very logical and getting the average kid through three years of math in 10 months… I loved the program myself and thought it made a lot of sense. But my kids didn’t get it. (By this point I was up to 4 students). After a solid 12 months of working through the book daily and only being 1/4 of the way through and unable to move on because they didn’t get it well enough, I decided that wasn’t working either.
I decided to try Learn Math Fast, since I was now panicky about how behind my kids were. Like Professor B math, LMF says to stay on each chapter until you know it well and then move on. After an entire school year and still being unable to move on from Chapter 1 because they didn’t know it well enough, I decided it was back to the drawing board yet again.
This time we tried Math Mammoth, advertised as being written directly to the student for independent learning. I felt like all the time I invested teaching Professor B and LMF hadn’t helped and I was ready to just let them work independently and see what they could do. I started my oldest in Grade 2 and the others in Grade 1. We actually made the most progress with MM. After 18 months, my oldest is now one chapter into MM 4th grade first book, my 10 year old is on 3rd grade, and my 9 and 7 year olds are on 2nd grade.
The three oldest are still very shaky and requiring lots of help and walking through problems. They hate math and find it very laborious. I’m still having to do a lot of teaching and helping if I want any problems to be correct… When I tell them they really need to do it themselves today, it’s not uncommon for the entire page of problems to be wrong.
I go back and forth beside just keeping on toughing it out like this and wondering if there is something I can do to help them “get it” better. I have looking into math tutoring but it doesn’t seem to be a realistic option right now.
I have the opportunity to make a fresh start with my 5th child and I’m wondering if the focus on understanding and mental math that I saw in the videos might set her up for success if I can invest the time.
But just a little stumped about what to do with my older kids… We already struggle with time because I do have a lot of students plus toddlers and my husband works an odd schedule that often cuts our school hours short. Most of the time we don’t complete all the school I set out to complete every day. I want to help the math situation but I’m not sure how I realistically can.
When you worked through book 3 with your daughter and finished in 4 months, how much time did you spend each day? Since my oldest just started MM grade 4, she’d be approximately the same level your daughter was.
Sorry for the grammar errors, I’m trying to help in the kitchen in between writing! And my oldest is 11.
I only have two kids at home (three are thriving in public school), but the two at home really seem to struggle with focus. My youngest is more mathy, and he is continuing with Math Mammoth this year. He mainly does it independently, but because of the focus issue, it can take him a long time to complete. Anyway, all that to say I tried to do a timed 20 minutes starting in September, but we were not getting much done. So instead I moved to completing a certain section of problems. Sometimes it takes us longer, sometimes 20 minutes is good. I found lately that getting a bit of physical activity in before math helps with focus.
I think you should try the placement with each child. Maybe some of them will place similarly and can be taught together.
One benefit of the SCM math is that it doesn’t have to be so many problems. Math Mammoth can be sooo many problems for them to work each day. With SCM it seems like a good amount of problems, and there is a little more review mixed in, with extra review at the back as needed.
I will answer your questions in order.
1. For students in 1st or 2nd grade math lessons should be no longer than 15-20 minutes. Math lessons increase in length as the child gets older because older students are able to give full attention to a lesson for a longer time. So 15-20 minutes maximum for younger students gradually increasing to 30-45 minutes for high schoolers. The amount of time spent on a lesson should always be according to your child’s ability to give their full attention to the lesson, whether you finish the lesson or not. Six to eight or nine year old children will work one-on-one with you for the entire math lesson. Their work is done almost completely orally because we do not want the labor of writing to get in the way of learning math concepts. Older students, about 9 years old and up, will still have one-on-one time with you for a portion of the lesson, then have problem sets to work independently. Independent work begins in Book 4 in SCM’s Charlotte Mason Elementary Arithmetic.
2. You can group teach if needed as long as your children are in the same book and are moving through the book at the same pace. Any children in the group should work all sample problems to show understanding of the concepts. You can divide problem sets between children when doing oral lessons and could even assign the problems to be worked independently by older students on a separate piece of paper or white board. Keep in mind that the answers for the problems for Books 1-3 are with the problem sets as the work is meant to be done orally. Beginning in Book 4, the answers are in the back of the book for all problem sets that are to be worked independently. When doing group lessons, the children can contribute to the 5 minute oral rapid review part of the lesson by giving problems to each other.
3. The DVD is not necessary. The video has demonstrations on how to lead your child through some of the lessons. If you need a visual of how to do a lesson, then the video can be helpful.
4. SCM’s Charlotte Mason Elementary Arithmetic works great for children with disabilities or special needs. Because you work at your child’s pace, you can go as slowly or as quickly through concepts as needed. There are extra problems given in the back of most of the books, problem sets that are not needed for a child to understand a concept or to solidify their recall of the facts can be bookmarked for review, and you can always repeat sections of problems if needed to give enough review for your child. Names and objects in story type problems can be changed to names of people your child knows and to objects your child has an interest in, too.
5. Any math program you use will involve you at some point, even ones that claim your child can work independently. Math is a skilled topic so you must secure understanding of concepts before moving on because concepts build on concepts. SCM’s arithmetic has short lessons which involve teaching new concepts, practicing those new skills, and daily reviewing previously learned skills.
I would encourage you to have each of your children take the placement test (there’s a link for it near the top of the page) to determine where they should start in the arithmetic books. Just so you know, Book 1 explores addition and subtraction with the numbers 1-100. Starting in Book 2, your child will learn (memorize) the addition tables and multiplication tables. Each book starts with a section of review of work done in previous books, so you may not need to start all of your children in Book 1. Book 5 (and Book 6 when it is released) is designed to be used alongside Charlotte Mason Practical Geometry. Typically, a student works in Book 5 (or Book 6) for 4 days and Practical Geometry for one day each week. Practical Geometry is a hands-on course that lays the foundation of geometry terms and how to draw lines, angles, circles, and other figures with precision using a ruler, protractor, and compass that prepares the student for upper level geometry with all its proofs and theorems.
Remember that you should move at your child’s pace of understanding. So, whichever book you start each child on be prepared to slow down (or back up) when your child has a difficult time understanding a concept or speed up when your child understands a concept with ease.
Hi Karen,
Thank you so much for the detailed responses! All the information was very helpful. I will work on having them take the placement test this week. I so much appreciate the advice and the extra information about the program.
HFehr, Thank you for sharing your experience! It was really helpful to me as well!
Hi Karen,
I finished the placement test with my two oldest girls. My oldest (11) had significant trouble with place value and with reading three digit numbers where the 10’s digit was a one; she read 912 on the test as 921. I gave her some extra three digit numbers after that and saw that she always read them correctly if the ten’s digit wasn’t a one, but if it was a one she would get confused and often follow the pattern of turning 912 into 921. I was pretty surprised to see this problem pop up.
With place value, I also gave her extra numbers to get a better idea of where she stood and saw that she always correctly answered “how many hundreds” but often mixed up the numbers in the 10’s and 1’s places, especially when I mixed up the order of my questions.
Even though she did fine at 3 digit addition and subtraction, would it be best to start her in the beginning of book 2? It looks like that is where the placement tests puts her if she does poorly on the first three questions of Group B. Then maybe we could move faster when getting to 3 digit operations if she already knows those?
Daughter #2, 10 years old, did some number reversing when reading the Group A numbers: 51 as 15, 73 as 37, 41 as 14. She did correct herself on these a minute after saying them and got the rest of the numbers correct on the first try. With problems 7-10 on Group A (addition and subtraction word problems) and and problems 4 and 5 on Group B (3 digit addition and subtraction) she had lots of trouble getting the problem down correctly… she’d write the top number and then “forget” the bottom number and need it re-dictated several times, either misheard or didn’t pay attention and did one addition problem as a subtraction problem instead, then guessed at 11-3 several times before remembering it was 8. (I didn’t help her.)
I am seeing that attention appears to be a big issue with this one. It was honestly hard for me to judge the math skills because she had so much trouble with the step of hearing the problem and writing it down accurately. This surprised me a little because while she’s not my stellar narrator, she does fairly well at listening to a reading and narrating it back. She is also pretty good at taking dictation one sentence at a time in spelling. With attention in math being such a big issue, I’m not quite sure where to place her in actual math skills?
A few weeks ago I had tested her on addition facts and she got most of them but some larger facts involving 7 and 8, however her recall is very slow at them and she occasionally relies on finger counting. She only knows x2 and x3 facts in multiplication, so I’m wondering if book 2 would be best for her as well, as you mentioned students learn addition and multiplication there?
Thank you for any advice here.
I think Book 2 sounds like a good starting place for both of them. Of course, move at their pace, camping out for a bit when they struggle and moving forward faster when the concept and the work are “easy.”
Some thoughts on your daughters’ math work with the placement guide. For the 11 year old mixing up the tens and ones places in place value, I’m wondering if she is hearing “ones” and her mind automatically chooses the number 1, even though it’s not in the “ones” place? The arithmetic books usually refer to the ones place as the units place. If you use “units” instead of “ones” to refer to the place value, then your daughter may find it easier to make the distinction between “tens” and “units.” If you are planning on getting Book 1 for your younger children, you may want to use the lessons on place value to refresh her memory on that concept in a hands-on way.
Regarding your 10 year old catching her mistakes and correcting them, she may be trying to answer too quickly before she’s fully processed the question. With Charlotte Mason math giving the student time to think and respond is part of the process, so you could tell her this is not a test on how quickly you can answer, so take your time and be sure of your answer before giving it.
Also, when dictating a math problem to your students it is fine for you to give the first part of the equation/story problem, then wait for your student to write down the numbers or gather manipulatives before giving the second part. For example, if you are dictating “20 + 18 =” to your child, then you could say “20 plus” and pause while your child writes or gets twenty beads / cents / jelly beans / whatever manipulative she’s using. When she’s finished writing or getting manipulatives, then say “18 equals”. Give her time to write or gather manipulatives and solve the equation. Pausing as you dictate gives the student a chance to process what is happening and to gather her thoughts. As she becomes more proficient in her math skills, she should be able to hold more of the equation in her head while she solves it mentally, in writing, or with manipulatives.
Feel free to allow your children to use a variety of manipulatives for as long as is needed. If a problem set has instructions to complete it without manipulatives, your child may use manipulatives if she is not ready to solve without them. You can try the first problem or two without manipulatives to help your child progress in her math skills, but we don’t want to frustrate our children by demanding they do something they are not ready for. When children are ready, they will usually put away the manipulatives on their own.
When you get to the addition and multiplication tables, your child will write the tables in her math notebook. Similar to the use of manipulatives, your child is allowed to use those tables for solving problems in the lessons and for the 5 minutes of oral review at the end of each lesson for as long as she needs them.
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