Question about Charlotte's "Right of Children as Persons"

I may be wrong on this as I have not read that, but I think I have experianced it.  The first year or so I ended up doing most of the thinking for my son, you know to help him.  But as I tried to step back and let him do the work it became apperant how much I had done and how much he became to depend on me “helping” him.  I learned my lesson in a big way and am very thankfull that it was shown to me, and early on, what I was doing and how un-helpfull it truely was.  This is how I am understanding Miss Mason.  When we carry the children through the school work and don’t allow them to do the thinking and figure things out for themselves it is a great diss-service to the children.  Again, I may be wrong, but having “carried” my son through his school work, this is how I interpet it.

Edited: It just came to me that when you carry someone you do all the work.  I think this very litteraly translation of “carrying the children” is a good visual for overhelping.  She mentions “letting them feel their feet”  I beleive this is to be translated: let them do the work.  I don’t think she ment this towards making sure the children do the work that is asked of them, just that they do the mental work required of the work being done.

I certainly see the truth in what Ruth shared — and indeed have seen that in my experiences as well.

As I reread the section, I think given the examples Charlotte shares, she is talking about the tendency we have as adults and teachers to try to control and even micromanage our students and children, rather than knowing when to “let go” and see (and let *them* see) what they can do on their own — that they may go beyond and truly create that which is completely new and entirely unique. 

This principle applied to play: in the previous section (p36-37) there are teriffic examples of how children must have time for creative play in which “the elders must neither meddle nor make.” And then, “Think what it must mean to a general in command of his forces [a child’s creative adventures] to be told by some intruder into the play-world [adult] to tie his shoe strings! There is an idea afloat that children require to be taught to play — to play at being little fishes and lambs and butterflies. No doubt they enjoy these games which are made for them, but there is a serious danger. In this matter the child who goes too much on crutches never learns to walk; he who is most played with  by his elders has little power of inventing plays for himself; and so he misses that education which comes to him when allowed to go his own way and act, ‘As if his whole vocation / Were endless imitation.'”

The she applies this principles again in the Personal Initiative in Work section and says. “In their work, too, we are too apt to interfere with children,” and goes on (trying not to quote everything, lol) to say that we all have seen how children delight in doing and creating things on their own, anything “which allows room for skill of hand, play of fancy, or development of thought.” And yet with our “present educational theories it seems that we cannot give much scope for personal initiative. There is so much task-work to be done, so many things that must be…learned about [not learned], that it is only now and then a child gets the chance to produce himself in his work.”

I think if you think of that above paragraph in ligiht of her examples of play, it’s easier to see where she is going with this. She then goes on to cite a situation of a Mr Sargent who began a school of 80 children and how when these children began to learn to draw, they had some amazing things happen. The usual thing that happens is that children are taught art for years and the children learn to draw. But it sounds like what happened here is that in still the early stages of their drawing instruction, as “soon as they were familiar with the outlines of the flower and foliage of a given plant, for example, they were encouraged to form designs with these elements.” The very beautiful designs they created were surprising to everyone, including those parents whose children had had *years* of drawing instruction without similar results. 

So in this example, the children were taught elements of art, had time to truly see the real leaves and flowers, but then were encouraged to expand and create new designs going beyond this.

These same children at this children “developed themselves a great deal” in their writing. They wrote for their school magazine, composing “tales and poems, and essays, not prescribed work, but self-chosen.” And they could write about all kinds of subjects, just whatever was of interest to them (and perhaps on topics that seemed mundane to the adults — Charlotte says they had much to say about things such as “a doll’s ball, Peter, the school cat” and so on). 

That leads into the original quote, saying that these children “felt their feet” as we would say when babies begin to have success when learning to walk; and “our non-success in education is a good deal due to the fact that we carry children through their school work and do not let them feel their feet.”

To me, this speaks to the joy that comes from those, “I did it myself!” experiences — where we help them with the tools they need to get them going, but also know when to get out of their way to let them apply and explore in those self-chosen ways (which includes letting tham fall down too), rather than being so filled with directed assignments that it sucks out the creativity and joy, and really limits them — limits the children to just what we can see in our own personal vision, or what this or that curriculum’s vision happens to be as we neatly check off every box for assignments. 

The next section on how children must stand or fall by their own efforts and how we are a society of prodders (those who prod and those who are prodded, although we all seem to like to be on both sides of that) is also excellent and ties in as well. Lots of good analogies here with the toddler learning to walk, but applied to other areas of life.

What was quoted above…

… that it is only now and then a child gets the chance to produce himself in his work.”

Reminds me of letting a child narrate with their own words and thoughts, instead of the practice of asking direct questions or filling out worksheets. Narration is one of the things that helps a student to stand on their own feet, right?

(my tiny contribution to the conversation)

I think there is some allowance for learning disabilities, but I think you can find a way to still allow your dd to learn the proper way of doing things on her own.Certain things will come with time and continual training such as reading and spelling.  Here is a post about helping children with following directions that I think may work for math.  It will be frustrating in the begining, but the more you work on it the easier it gets.  http://simplycharlottemason.com/scmforum/topic/getting-children-to-follow-directions

  How well would it work if you were to repeat what she said in a jumbled order for her to understand what was wrong with it?  Do you think she would see how what she said was out of order and didn’t really make sence, or would she not understand that your repeating her words were wrong the way they came from her?  Will she respond well to questions that would prompt her to think more for herself?

I do think that children do need the structure and proper techniques for many things in life.  MysteriousLadyinPink gave the example of the art lessons.  Children need the proper structure and technique for their lessons, but then given the freedom to use their skills to express themselves.  I don’t fell you are repressing her ability to think when you ask her to play a particular peice in the proper way. 

I did go through something similar with my ds(now 8), so I understand your frustration.  He was diagnosed on the Autism Spectrum.  It was a lot of work on my part to teach my son to speak properly and think for himself, but it was worth it now 3 years later when he only needs minimal instructions and corrections on his speach.   There were a lot of tantrums and anger on his part when I started asking him to think for himself and started having higher expectations of him.  He still gets very frustrated and upset when I add in something new for him to learn, but I know it will pass and he will be able to do it.  I really think pushing him a little to think more for himself along with diet changes helped so much.  I would encourage you to step back a minute and really look at the situation.  Is your helping your daughter to think things through really helping her, or does she not even try because she knows you will correct it for her?  I am not trying to be condeming here, I went through this process myself and it is hard and a little sorrowfull when you realize you haven’t been helping but actually worsening the situation.  I understand if these suggestions and thoughts may not work for you, but I thought you might want to hear one persons perspective.

This conversation has been a blessing to me.  Thank you for sharing these links, Sonya.  I find this poster needs to be in front of my eyes!