Neo-Classical Education and CM Education

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  • missceegee
    Participant

    This was just shared with me and I have permission to share it. The author is Brighid Nisbett. It came from a CM discussion on Facebook.

    I just wrote an article about it but it still needs editing and I haven’t posted it yet. It’s designated for Catholics but might help.

    “Put simply, a classical education is one that adheres to certain time-tested principles.

    There are many ways to answer the question, and you will likely want to do a little research on the topic.The majority of homeschooling educators will tell you that Classical education involves the use of the Trivium, or stages of learning… the “grammar” stage, “reasoning” stage, and “rhetoric” stage, in which a student is taught the basics of reasoning, taught to reason, and then freed to opine on his own.

    Dig a little deeper and you’ll learn that this common misperception is called the “neo-Classical” movement, and only contains a (skewed) part of the answer.

    The Trivium is indeed a part of a classical education, as is the Quadrivium (the second part) and together these form the Classical Liberal Arts. They are seven in number:

    TriviumGrammarLogicRhetoric

    QuadriviumArithmeticGeometryMusicAstronomy

    And learning them does not require a certain age (an adult can learn them!) but rather a certain ORDER, because the knowledge of each them builds upon itself and helps inform the others.They also, typically, require a good, knowledgeable teacher.Which is why so many wonderful homeschooling curriculum providers who offer help with a classical education tend to eventually turn towards recommending a school setting (even online) vs a homeschool setting, where a mother who doesn’t know the classical liberal arts can’t really TEACH them to her own children.The model is and always has been master / student (s).

    The purpose, of course, is the fine-tuning of the mental mechanism and a training, so to speak, of the mind. In essence, they teach the student TO think, and to think well.

    Now, a Charlotte Mason education teaches the seven liberal arts. And thoroughly. What it doesn’t do is require a school setting, although there are many wonderful CM schools.What it DOES do is teach the student to think, and clearly, and with great joy… and to self-educate.A Charlotte Mason education is a self-education. The teacher does not get between the student and the material. The teacher, is, in fact, the great book— and it’s author.Which is why a Charlotte Mason-method trained teacher will give a student only the BEST books, full of what is true, and right, and beautiful. Enough exposure to the truth will, as the years go by, enable a student to recognize a falsehood as it is presented. More importantly, the basic subjects of the trivium and quadrivium (“core” of a classical education) are taught methodically and using whatever means are available and effective, and typically in a very traditional style (For example, math need not be fussy– Charlotte used a program much like Ray’s Arithmetic. Same for grammar, Latin, etc.)The rest (arts, music, history, natural history, geography) is taught using living books or living interaction with the subject (As in nature study, picture study, dry brush, or composer study, for example.)

    In a Classical school, these might be addressed via memory work, but certainly the hands-on, “ideas coming to life” aspect would be missed. Unless an excellent teacher were, of course, able to bring the subjects to life.Further, the typical classical educator is concerned with the assimilation of “knowledge…” but the Charlotte Mason educator is concerned with the spreading of a feast of ideas from which to be inspired. Rather than think of the student as a receptacle for knowledge, which is there, ready to be filled, the CM educator thinks of the student as  a PERSON, waiting to be ignited so that he, too, may join The Great Conversation.

    So rest assured— a Charlotte Mason education is indeed a Classical education.You will find that even in practical application, there is a great similarity between the two methods as they are practiced in many ways.”

    missceegee
    Participant

    In this same vein:

    Every educational method begins with an understanding of what a child is, whether you realize it or not.  Because this is curriculum-decision season for many, I’m going to share two quotes.  From Leigh Bortins’ The Core (Classical Conversations founder):  “You are a human data machine.” Charlotte Mason’s number-one principle: “Children are born persons.”  How you view a child makes a huge difference in how you choose to educate.   

    ~ Karen Glass

    sarah2106
    Participant

    Thank you! Very helpful. Many in my area lean classical and are involved in very involved coops and very indepth school at home even in early elementary. While talking to friends this is what I have thought, but could never put it into words.

    missceegee
    Participant

    It is interesting. I hear often how compatible classical (meaning neo-classical ala Well Trained Mind or Classical Conversations) and Charlotte Mason philosophies are. I couldn’t disagree more. They share some similar methods, but the crux is different. Charlotte Mason focused on ideas, not dry facts. Memory work is a perfect example – we memorize poetry, scripture, hymns, and folk songs and not names and dates and sentences about time periods outside of being couched in a living idea.

    sarah2106
    Participant

    That is what my friends tell me to, but I could never quite explain the difference. This explains it really well.

    Sonya Shafer
    Moderator

    Keep your radar up for the release of this book: Consider This: Charlotte Mason and the Classical Tradition by Karen Glass. It is coming out soon, and I highly recommend it! Excellent explanation and very readable!

    missceegee
    Participant

    That one is on my short list to buy. OK, well, my list is never short, but…Wink

    MissusLeata
    Participant

    We do CC and we do CM. I know that’s supposed to not work, but it can. (Just feeling the need to defend myself here.) But, at home, we aren’t classical. We don’t force memory work and we strive for “the gentle art of learning.” But our CC classes cover CM things like fine arts and hands-on science experiments that I struggle to get in at home with 4 little ones.

    For those of you who are able to do all the CM stuff on your own, that’s awesome. But I really can’t do it all and without the fellowship of somethign like CC, homeschooling gets really hard.

    missceegee
    Participant

    MissusLeata – I lead a CM co-op of 25 families and completely understand the need for fellowship and support. We cover many things during our 24 meetings each year. The scope is broad and I understand the need for help with some subjects.

    Please understand I’m talking about the philosophy, the underpinnings, and the view of the child – how each has a distinctly different view that will color the principles and approach. Those things ARE different even when families merge the two. I don’t say that to make those who merge things defensive, simply to foster the dialogue about the differences that in my mind are too great to ignore. I don’t feel I’m articulating terribly well tonight so please know I mean no offense. I’m simply interested in discussing the topic.

    nebby
    Participant

    I have heard CM fits well with what real (not neo-) classical education was. I don’t know enough about it to say myself. But I do think there are some key differences between CM and what is called classical ed now. I recently read Sayers’ Lost Tools of Learning which really kicked off the revival of classical ed and was kind of shocked that it was such a popular and influential article. Her view of children is not very good. Here is what I blogged about it:

    http://lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com/2014/05/24/the-lost-tools-of-learning/

    Nebby

    Bookworm
    Participant

    This is all how I eventually ended up in the CM camp–was thinking and reading about classical education, encountered Karen Glass online, and then was able to put my finger on what we were missing and why, and how to fix it.  🙂  I too am rather stunned that so many people think Sayers’ article is the epitome of education for children.  Never have figured that out.  (She wrote a good mystery, though!)

    anniepeter
    Participant

    Bookworm – You wrote a post a couple of years or more ago about this very thing…and your experience with it. I remember reading it after being with a group of people that we had a lot in common with who were nearly all doing CC and sold on the whole deal. I started wondering if I’d missed something, and did a bit of research on it (here for one place). Your post settled it for me in the few words mentioned above that the child is viewed as a person here, as opposed to more of an information receptacle. I decided it just makes sense to treat the child as a person, somehow 🙂 This just reminded me…and I wanted to thank you. I didn’t look up the thread, but maybe others reading this would be interested in looking to find it.

    missceegee
    Participant

    Nebby, I just read your linked post and it’s what I would have written had I written about Sayers’ article. I hope to read your other posts soon. Good insights!

    greenebalts
    Participant

    Thanks for starting this dialog as it’s been on my mind for some time!!  (I think I may have started a thread here at one point a while back?…but can’t find it at the moment.)  

     

    One source I found extremely helpful was Harvey and Laurie Bluedorn’s book Teaching the Trivium: Christian Homeschooling the Classical Style.  I had an “ah ha moment” while studying some of their writings.  Here are a few articles that spoke to me…

     

    The Transformation of Classical Education

    http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/transformation_of_classical_education.php

     

    The Trivium and Charlotte Mason

    http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/the_trivium_and_charlotte_mason.php

     

    Building a Firm Foundation for Classical Education: The Things to Do Before Age Ten

    http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/building_a_firm_foundation.php

     

    Why Classical School at Home?

    http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/why_classical_at_home.php

     

     

    I couldn’t agree more that Charlotte Mason was indeed a classical educator PRE Dorothy Sayers.  This fact also comes through in her six volume series. 

     

    I think the CM/Classical tie really is developed more in the upper grades.  Unfortunately, in my area, many people poo-poo CM at the upper levels, believing it’s only for early elementary.  I recently started giving talks on Charlotte’s methods and am starting a CM Study Group in our area to bust this myth.  I’m really excited to say, interest in Charlotte’s methods is growing :))

     

    Christie, I’m not on FB.  Does Ms. Nisbett have a blog or can you PM me with any contact information?  Or, you could forward her my contact information?  I’m interested in reading her published article and learning more about her research. 

     

    Thanks so much,

    Melissa

    missceegee
    Participant

    @Melissa, I’m not on facebook either, a friend forwarded it to me and asked for the permission. I’ll see if I can find out more.

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