MONUMENTAL: In Search of America's National Treasure

There are 3 links to other articles that require further scrutiny:

The first is:

John Chisham: states that maybe he “had the wrong expectations”; I would agree since he expected a “ strong Gospel message “. In Cameron’s interviews I saw, that wasn’t the intent of the movie-it was to reveal a history that has been intentionally removed from our education over the past 100 years. He also claims that this movie seems to “a revival of…, manifest destiny”; Manifest Destiny was a perversion of the concept of a Providential hand in America; started by Pres. Jackson who was a proponent of slavery, an Indian-hater and despised State’s Rights. Since his name has been mentioned in relation to this: Glenn Beck has dedicated significant amount of time on his show directly against Manifest Destiny-he would not support a movie if he thought it was promoting that doctrine.

Another distressing quote:

“There is no hope in History, or in a revival of the American way. The American way is corrupted beyond repair.”

How apathetic and depressing! This type of pessimism is part of the problem and why we are in the place we are in. Was Israel beyond revival when the second Temple was built and Ezra read the Torah Scroll aloud and Nehemiah the Prophet/Politician lead the way? G-d worked through a pagan King to make it happen: Ezra 1:1-4.

G-d’s People got their act straight and a revival began. We are, throughout the Scripture, admonished and encouraged to look to the previous generations of people of faith to give us a map to moving forward. Isn’t that what we’re doing when we look to the Puritans radical faith that led them to Holland then here (which makes the case for homeschooling) and remember the faith and dedication of our Founders who had a Bible based faith and a Judeo-Christian culture that used to exist.

Are we just supposed to isolate ourselves in our faith communities and not challenge the culture and be a participant in trying to reverse the direction we are going? We have system of gov’t. that allows for a change of direction when those in power become tyrannical.

Post #2

My last post is about the 3rd linked article by Dr. Throckmorton: first of all, the author didn’t even see the movie.

His analysis is also a little convoluted in one particular area where in trying to disprove Barton, he actually ends up confirming what Barton said. In the 2nd paragraph, Throckmorton quotes:

“Barton tells Cameron that “This Bible was funded by about a dozen signers of the Constitution and signers of the Declaration as well as by President John Adams and Vice-President Thomas Jefferson. They’re the guys that put up the financial backing to do this Bible.” ;

then Throckmorton says further down:

“It is not true that a dozen Founders went together to put up the “financial backing” for the Thompson Bible”

then he proceeds to explain how the Bible was funded through subscriptions, as that’s how books were funded back then.

Then he says:”In truth, over 1270 people subscribed, including about a dozen Founders to purchase a Bible for their own use. Jefferson did buy one…” though he didn’t finish paying for it till 1799, but that doesn’t change the fact that he helped fund it through his subscription.

Okay, so Barton says about a dozen Founders funded the Bible (via subscriptions). Throckmorton says it’s not true, but then he confirms that “In Truth, over 1270 people subscribed, including about a dozen Founders…” so it wasn’t a historical inaccuracy after all.

I have not been able to confirm whether Pres. J. Adams bought a subscription or not, outside Throckmorton’s assertions, of which he doesn’t provide documentation or footnotes.

Concerning the Aitken Bible: I can’t confirm whether D. Barton said in the movie what Throckmorton claims, as neither one of us have seen the movie! It doesn’t make sense though that Barton would say things in a movie when he says the opposite on his website, but until I see the movie, I can’t say for sure.

Another issue, but I will provide a link to the highly footnoted Wallbuilders site about the Aiken Bible since this has to do w/Barton’s statements and you can compare it yourself to what Throckmorton says.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=112866

Lastly, he does the same thing he did at the beginning of his paper, by trying to disprove something, he ended up proving it:

Throckmorton says: “Cameron claims that Thomas Jefferson’s book of extracted verses from the Gospels, often called the “Jefferson Bible,” was not done to remove the miracles and keep the morals. Instead, Cameron claims that Jefferson just wanted to make up a little devotional book for himself.”

Then, to try to contradict Cameron, he provides a quote from Jefferson concerning his version: “Jefferson said, “I have performed this operation for my own use…” Doesn’t that mean what Cameron said above about making up “a little devotional book for himself”? I can also confirm this from my reading of American Sphinx, which is a Jefferson bio.

Much Ado about Nothing.

I should mention that I disagree w/Cameron that Jefferson didn’t cut certain passages out of the NT intentionally. He did-I don’t think he believed in miracles and he didn’t believe in the divinity of Y’shua/Jesus.

Although Mr. Throckmorton may have some legitiment areas of contention w/the movie, I believe he sidesteps some of the facts.

As John Adams said in 1770:

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

This continues to be an intersting topic as are most here on the forum! Thanks!

G-d Bless!

Rachel

Just wanted to express my gratitude to Rachel for her well-written comments. I was thinking that it would be a good thing indeed if as we read original source doucments and knew something about the situations, prayed for discernment, and then act on our promptings (this applies to all situations).  

Our parental rights are being eroded away, the right to homeschool is being threatened, our religious freedoms are constantly belittled and attacked, and we seem more concerned about whether or not the Founding Fathers were traditional Christians or not. Instead of trying so hard to buttonhole the Founding Fathers into our conceived labels, maybe we should be thankful for their sacrifices, and be more pro-active in defending our rights and freedoms they fought and worked so hard for.

As Rachel pointed out, apathy is not a good attitude for any of us, no matter our religious beliefs – history has taught us that so many times over.

Christie – I wasn’t saying that you personally are doing the buttonhole-ing.  I read the articles and have for years read modern biographies of the Founding Fathers and it just seems that the focus so often is about whether or not they are traditional Christians.  So my comments were not directed at you personally, but more at the collective thought of the need for labels.  I guess I just don’t get the “why” it matters so much if they are traditional Christians.  The Lord has the power to work His works through the people He needs, and I feel He did use the Founding Fathers, whether they understood that and acknowledged it or not.   I am very interested in history and think that there are many lessons to be learned from it.  But at the same time – why do we always want to label the past with our modern standards and thought?  It doesn’t always work, and then we have discussions like this. LOL

The acceptance that any of this should be taken at face value as absolute truth is what concerned me.  We need to read the original source documents in their context to really understand what/who these men were/are.  (In fact, this reminded me of SCM’s recent blog posts on Ready-Made Opinions.  =)  For those who missed this blog series here is the link for the first of 4:  http://simplycharlottemason.com/2012/01/18/ready-made-opinions/)

My apathy statement was echoing Rachel’s concern from Post #3 where she was discussing apathy and lack of apparent concern over our current state of society.  We see this so much any more – but need to remember that we as a people were given the stewardship to care for this country through the elected leaders and what we as a society tolerates.  If we don’t exercise our rights and protect them and care for one another (our stewardship), then the adversary is given cart blanche to do what he will.  I want to have a safe place for my children and grandchildren so want to do what I can to help provide them with the same rights I enjoy. Exercising our rights can be as simple as fervent prayer, writing letters, voting, standing up for what we know is the right thing even against political correctness (sometimes not as easy!), etc.  We as individuals just have to make the decision to be involved to make a difference. Often it only takes one to get others motivated.  I know that you personally are already involved from other threads and other posts.  Being involved just means trying to make the world a better place.

I too know that it is faith in Christ and His atonement that gives us our hope and inner peace…and as we more fully develop our faith and hope in Him, it gives us the strength and determination to try to make our situations better in all areas. (As Paul said, “when thou are converted, strengthen thy brethern” – and there, now that is out of context…grab your original source, LOL )  

I do not think that faith in Christ and hope for a country has to be totally separate, but the faith in Christ should always be what motivates us in all our actions.  

Anyway, not offended…and not picking on anyone in this thread.  Just voicing some thoughts… =)

Christie, I look forward to your comments after you’ve had some time.

Thank you Sheraz; I agree completely. We have a gov’t now whos head believes The MAster would’ve condoned “fair share” distribution and the progressive tax code, as opposed to personal charity which our Forefathers and Founder’s believed that belief in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob teaches us to take care of each other. Also, as you were talking about modernism, when modern Feminists use Abigail Adams as one of theirs, it makes me so mad! She would have been horrified at mothers allowing others to educate their children and the demonization of men in our society; to her being educated was not just for the benefit of herself, but to make her a better wife, mother, and educator. Doesn’t quite fit the modern feminist agenda.

I thought I would share what I found about in regards to the monument in the movie: I found almost uniform information about the monument at Plymouth as Dr. Foster shared in the movie (at least according to the article from post #3 above).

As I said above, the authors of that article question 3x Dr. Foster and why he would know what he was telling. Well, the information is readily available:

The monument has a few different names and I found this info at a tourist site from Mass. , wikipedia, and one from an archived article from the Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, so not just some blogger somewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Monument_to_the_Forefathers

This one I recommend doing a full page preview-the info. Is on the left side in the 2nd paragraph:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/990993?uid=3739616&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=47698827681177

http://web.archive.org/web/20060511222601/http://www.plymouthguide.com/monument.html

You can make the comparisons for yourself if you like, then you’ll be able to answer their questions about how he knows the info he does. Amusingly, the carved statues have the words identifying them carved into the stone below them, so you know who’s who.

This is an excellent site (except for the cutesy comments) that gives up close pictures of the statues and the names, as well as if you click o the picture, you get a close up:

http://www.mybigadventure.com/index.php?action=Monuments&date=20041023&page=2

I must add that I am very thankful to what David Barton has done for in putting up full documents on his site. Unlike his detractors, he’s not afraid of people seeing the entire document, nor does he refrain from using massive amounts of footnotes.

Again, backing up what Sheraz said about applying Modernism to the people of the past, Barton agrees on his site within a very interesting article, part of which was posted earlier on this post, but the full one is very enlightening: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=89988

Barton has almost single-handedly revealed the source of the phrase “Separation of church and state” and put it within it’s proper context of a letter, non-official, between Jefferson and a preacher revealing the concept as being the exact opposite as it is used today.

He also has done a phenomenal job exposing the truth behind the truth of black history that isn’t known and should be; and even women’s history, as well as a contextual look at the Salem Witch Trials; all areas that the liberal left, atheists and educational elite have used to vilify and degrade this country and taught at least one generation of children how unfair and horrible this country has been, etc… So when he has exposed that, yes we’ve been at fault, but there’s more to our history than what has been taught; then he incurs their the wrath (and as we’ve seen, the wrath of a certain sect of Christians who are distressed that our founders weren’t like them). How atheists can try to claim Jefferson or Franklin is beyond me; the only one close to them would be T.Paine and even he, like Gollum in the LotR, played a part, “for good or ill”.

I wanted to share John Adams’ Proclamation of 1798 of Prayer and Fasting (during which he was a member of a Unitarian doctrine church). Notice the reference to Redeemer of the World and the Holy Spirit here (as it backs-up the notion that he wasn’t rejecting either, just the Nicene Creed Trinitarian doctrine designations) http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=44:

…at all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before GOD the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation; beseeching him, at the same time, of his infinite Grace, through the Redeemer of the world, freely to remit all our offences, and to incline us, by his holy spirit, to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction; …

Lastly, isn’t it interesting that our Revolution was really a freak of nature? Look a the other ones since then: the French, Russian, Chinese, many of them, including the recent ones in the Arab world; and what happened? They end up worse than how they began. (Jefferson and PAine were wrong about the French Rev. and Adams right) and only a few have been bold enough to say the truth about the recent “Arab Spring” and the disasterous effects they are having. The similarities? They weren’t founded on principles of Judeo-Christian Biblical Liberty and the ability to think-reason and faith can go hadn-inhand, they are not mutually exclusive. Our children must be thinkers and belivers at the sam,e time.

Instead, these “revolutions” were based more on mass mobs seeking “justice” and “fairness”, etc., which end up in Communism or some sort of Dictatorship. The most organized win and thank G-d, our Founders were organized! Leaving the Continental Congresses to go work on State Constitutions immediately; they knew it wasn’t enough to just tear down and thank G-d for the Puritan foundations. There’s nothing new under the sun; that’s why knowing history is so incredibly important, you can see the patterns. A strong minority can make a difference! G-d leaves a remnant.

Anyway, I better head off to bed now!

Rachel,

Thank you so much for posting the links.  I have done some of the same searches, and followed up on a few of them, but it’s nice to have it all right here  together. Your posts are representative of my own thoughts, and I appreciate the clarity you give in them. 

~jacqleene