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LLATL vs CM
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How does Learning Language Arts Through Literature compare to Charlotte Mason’s method?
I recently switched my oldest to LLATL in order to simplify our day (we were using all about spelling, handwriting without tears, and climbing to good English). But the recent threads on CM writing are making me wonder if LLATL is really what I want. Though I admit I’m really enjoying the all in oneness if it instead of juggling several components. I know I’m not being as consistent with narration as I should be. He does narrate history twice a week, bible stuff very casually daily, his personal reading very casually, and the past couple months have included a very short written narration from science once a week.
Do I have this right? If I followed CM guidelines, my fourth grader would do dictation, grammar, oral narration every day, and written narration once a week?
i am using spelling you see with my 2nd grader and liking it, but if I used it with my 4th grader I guess I’d have to find something for grammar too.
We tried it, and it’s not in line with CM – at all. For starters it starts too much, too soon. Also, LLATL is full of busy work in the early years – exactly what CM did NOT want children doing.
With CM – there would be no spelling until grade 4, nor any grammar. Before then the only thing children need to be doing is reading and copywork. Copywork is more than just writing sentences, it encompasses grammar and spelling into it, it lays a foundation for the skills that children do not need (nor are ready for) in the younger years.
As far as narration – sounds like your son is doing just fine, he’s narrating something every day, and a written narration once a week. You’re right on track.
If you want something “all in one” that is more true to Charlotte Mason (and will take far less time than LLATL), then look at using Spelling Wisdom and Using Language Well.
I’m using LLATL this year and I loved it at first. It made everything so simple and together.
But, I concluded that the spelling part is just not working. So, over Christmas break, I bought Spelling Wisdom and plan to switch to Using Language Well next year.
But what if you only use LLATL from 4th and up? And skip the early, busywork years?
So far I’ve liked what I see in orange/4th. Copy work, dictation (sometimes this is cold dictation, but that’s easy to switch to studied dictation), gentle grammar (my son recently did a lesson on possessive nouns and possessive pronouns and I thought the way they went about it helped make the abstract concept more concrete).
Ive been looking at spelling wisdom, and it does look very nice. But between spelling wisdom, using language well, and I see Jr. analytical grammar is recommended too later on, I will be back to having multiple pieces to coordinate.
Personally, I didn’t like some of the literature choices for the older grades. So, for me, it makes more sense to do SW and ULW for 4th grade (next year, for us.) But, if something is really working for you, then it works. 🙂
If you are enjoying it and feel like you are getting good results, I’d stick with it. The grass is not always greener on the other side. 🙂 We have used LLATL with some kids for some years. It all depends on the kid and what else is going on. Some years I enjoy coming up with dictation sentences and narration assignments and integrating spelling and grammar, and other years I don’t.
I have terrible spellers so we have always had to supplement with spelling, but other then that I really like that it is all in one. Sometimes its nice to let others do the thinking for you. KWIM
I would say, “never wake a sleeping baby, and never jump ship on a curriculum that is working for you.” : )
Well, I haven’t used it long enough yet to know. But I guess I’ll see how we feel at the end of orange, if it’s working for us then I should just stick with it.
I’ve been looking over yellow/3 to see if I want to use it next year with my daughter, but was leaning towards not using it because I’m still focused on teaching her to read. These writing threads are reassuring me that’s a good choice. If she continues all about reading, spelling you see, and oral narration next year, that will be enough. And I will hold off on LLATL till 4th grade for her too.
You asked,
Do I have this right? If I followed CM guidelines, my fourth grader would do dictation, grammar, oral narration every day, and written narration once a week?
So here’s a quick overview of language arts for fourth grade. (Well, I’ll try to make it quick. 😉 )
Language Arts includes everything you do to help your student growth in four areas: hearing, speaking, reading, and writing.
- Hearing: You accomplish this mainly through everyday conversations and reading aloud good books, poetry, Shakespeare, and such.
- Speaking: You accomplish this through everyday conversations also, along with oral narrations and recitations of poetry and Scripture. (Keep in mind that the recitations don’t have to occur every single day, but they should be regular in order to see regular, consistent growth.)
- Reading: You accomplish this through teaching your child to read. In grades 1–3 you are reading most of the student’s school books to him, but in grade 4 you can start making the transition of assigning him to read some of those on his own.
- Writing: You accomplish this through copywork and transcription in grades 1–3, transitioning into dictation in grades 4 and up. You also begin to require some narrations in writing (since the oral narrations foundation has been established). Now that the student has a reason to want to improve his ability to communicate in writing, you introduce grammar and help him grow in his composition skills, encouraging him to fine tune his own writing voice.
Does it help to see the big picture? Or did I just muddy the waters more?
Thanks for that link to the article on guided grammar discovery. It actually makes me feel better about LLATL. Lol. The examples given could have been picked straight from LLATL! I’m thinking the upper years of LLATL, 4th and up, are very CM friendly. I just need to avoid the younger years which are filled with busy work.
I’ve been thinking more about this. the thing about LLATL that is definitely working for me is the all in oneness. No scheduling, no planning, no transition time between all the LA parts. It’s gentle, but does eventually cover everything if I stick with it. So that’s one less thing to worry about. And it teaches writing by imitation and letting the student find their own voice, rather than by formula. All pluses.
But there is some busy work in it. And I am afraid that it will use up all of my writing-phobic-son’s writing endurance each day, leaving none for written narrations. we have only recently started these, what we were studying in science leant itself well to this, but that part is over and I am trying to figure out how to keep doing it. My sons oral narrations are short, almost summaries (his younger sister gives long detailed narrations, using a lot of the same words as the author. This is what narration should be like, right?). His written narrations are two sentences. So I’m trying to think if there’s a way to do more CM style LA, but keep it simple enough for me.
Hearing and speaking: we do these parts.
Reading: I do need to work on this part. Since we do everything as a family I’ve struggled with knowing which books to have him read himself. They have to be good books, but not so good that I feel like my other kids are missing out by not hearing them. Lol.
Writing: this is the part that I need the most help with. Copy work/dictation could be covered with selling you see (I already have level E unused). Written narration, This is what I’d like to have time to focus on and why I’m considering not using LLATL next year.
Grammar and growing his composition skills: this is the part I’m totally lost on! I don’t know what ‘growing his composition skills’ even means. Lol. Does this mean teaching the various forms of writing like research, expository, etc? I don’t know what all the forms are or how to teach them. And grammar… Everything I look at seems to be meant to be done daily, which I don’t feel up to. Plus I’m afraid that, again, it will crowd out written narration for my writing phobic kid. I am not going to do Latin (do want to do word roots, but not for a few more years).
My oldest used LLATL for one year and it was a real struggle. He does not like busy work and didn’t like all the writing. I’ve since discovered that English Lessons through Literature is a much more CM-friendly LA program. I am using it now – Level 1 with my 6YO and 7YO, and Level 3 with my 10YO.
I work on it 3x/week with each child. The lessons are short.
Check out the review here for a more thorough description of the program:
http://cathyduffyreviews.com/grammar-composition/english-lessons-through-literature.htm
Grammar and growing his composition skills: this is the part I’m totally lost on! I don’t know what ‘growing his composition skills’ even means. Lol. Does this mean teaching the various forms of writing like research, expository, etc?
Here is a breakdown of how and when Charlotte Mason “grew” her students in composition skills. She varied the students’ narrations to allow them to develop composition skills in the different essay forms.
Grades 1–3: Narrative, asking the student to retell the plot in chronological order.
Grades 4–6: (Narrative and) Expository, asking the student to give a clear and accurate explanation of how something works.
Grades 7–9: (Narrative, Expository, and) Descriptive, asking the student to describe something, usually progressing from large scope to smaller details.
Grades 10–12: (Narrative, Expository, Descriptive, and) Persuasive, asking the student to state his opinion and give supporting points in a logical manner.You can learn more about growing your child’s composition skills and see examples of narration questions Charlotte Mason used for each of the composition forms in this part of our blog series on narration.
You mentioned that you have a hard time fitting in LLATL and written narrations. That’s the exact reason I won’t use an all in one language arts program. CM language arts methods are slowly squeezed out. I have seen wonderful fruit in my children through CM’s methods and the convenience of a complete LA program just can’t compete IMO.
Believe it or not, it’s quite easy to get into the habit of doing LA CM style. Simply put copywork, dictation and composition (written narration) on your schedule. Buy a dictation resource (such as Spelling Wisdom) and use if for copywork as well. That way you don’t have to come up with your own selections.
Here’s how we do it:
Mondays and Fridays are written narration. (my daughter is in 8th so she does it twice. Your oldest should start with one a week and the others are too young.)
Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays we do grammar (I wait until middle school for this. We’ve tried a few different programs but Easy Grammar Plus is my favorite so far.)
Tuesdays and Wednesdays we do copywork and on Thursday we do dictation, using the same passage for all 3 and changing to a new one at the beginning of each week.
Easy peasy, once you get the hang of it. 😀
That article on narration, raising the bar is helpful. To have a clear idea of how to build up the narration. But what about actually teaching them how to write an essay, a research paper, etc things which I see in the LLATL middle school manuals? As I look through their instructions, stepping a kid through the process, I wonder if I could teach these things on my own…
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