Name: Spreading the Feast Gathering
Start: 2025-07-11T00:00:00-05:00
End: 2025-07-12T23:59:59-05:00
Location: LaGrange, KY

Tagged: Grammar

This topic has 14 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 10 months ago by Karen Smith.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)

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March 2, 2008 at 1:46 pm
JessicaTA
Member
I’m a researcher by nature and I’ve been reading everything I can get my hands on about studying science with younger children and I’ve even looked at scope & sequences of many products, our state and national standards and online academies.
I have dd7 who is in 2nd grade right now (and ds3), we’re going to finish our 2nd year of homeschooling and for science we’re studying Astronomy right now with Green Hour assignments for nature study from Barb of Harmony Fine Arts.
First of all, I really want nature study to become integral in our family life, I want specimens all over the house and aquarium tanks filled with friends to learn about but I’m also concerned with providing them the foundation they need in science in case that is the field they wish to specialize in.
I’ve talked to other parents about this and one of them has their children read the ABeka science textbooks every year as assigned reading in conjunction with nature studies. Her children also participate in 4-H and science education competitions.
My heart’s desire is to read my children wonderful books (I’ll list a few below) and then go off exploring but I have this nagging sense I need to provide just a little more. I figure I have 4 routes to take:
1. Use the living books, nature study and read ABeka/Bob Jones Science texts separately to insure of adequate exposure of state/national standards.
2. Use living books that cover the scope/sequence and any of our desired studies with nature study.
3. Use What Every Child Needs to Know by Hirsch as a reader/read-aloud to cover science topics and do what we want for the rest of the year.
4. Use curricula products that use living books and do nature study how we want separately.
Examples of living books I want to use:
– Seed-babies by Margaret Warner Morley (see at: http://books.google.com/books?id=_60XAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=seed-babies&ei=Tq3KR9PKLYTCyQSQxdGnCQ)
– Among the _____ People by Clara Dillingham Pierson (at Yesterday’s Classics)
– The Story Book of Science and other books by Jean Henri Fabre
– The Fairy-Land of Science by Arabella Buckley
– Madam How and Lady Why; Or First Lessons in Earth Lore for Children
by Charles Kingsley
– Citizen Bird: Scenes from Bird-life in Plain English for Beginners by Mabel Osgood Wright
Please help me shed the WTM way of thinking that I’ve had for two years! These books have scientific terms and I think they will open up a whole new world to my children beyond the short focus of children’s science literature books of today.
Can I provide a “book basket” for my children to read from that covers the scope & sequence of state/national standards- books like Seymour Simon and the like and just read these older living books with nature study without somehow ruining my children’s academic future in science in case that’s what God is calling them to??? Lol, sigh.
I know there is not a “right” answer, I guess I just need some encouragement or better yet, someone who has done this with good results to assure me!
I hope someone can provide some input, thank you.
Jessica
March 2, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Rachel White
Participant
I don’t think you have to go as “textbooky” as Abecka and Bob Jones to find a science base. They are written and designed for a classroom approach to learning. I would definitely encourage you to look at Answers in Genesis’s new science curriculum, God’s Design Curriculum. It was designed for the homeschooling family. Another option is the Apologia, it is very conversational. After I finish 106 Days of Creation I am going to go into God’s Design Series and use the elementary Apologia as additional reading, as my 7 year old already does w/the astronomy book, more delight directed. I will also have the living books throughout. Either one would give you that base you’re looking for w/o that contradiction in style and flavor of learning.
BTW, I would suggest adding Trumpet of the Swan to living books in science. There’s quite a bit of info. there about Trumpeter swans. Also, it placed a desire to pursue more info. about them from library books. Not to mention I have pictures galore with cobs, gray cignets w/correctly colored bills, pens (female swans), the correct number of eggs in the nest, etc, and discussions of how long the incubation time is. Swans, Swans, everywhere!
March 2, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Rachel White
Participant
In answering some of your questions, #1- works for me except for the choice of abecka or Bob Jones,#2 would drive me crazy trying to figure it out (!), re#3-I think Hirsch is too dry for a read aloud, not to mention secular; use as a reference for yourself as needed, and re#4, I think sometimes they’ll be separate and sometimes they may flow together.
I think your book selections are wonderful. I really like the Yesterday’s classics selections. Don’t forget Parables of Nature, any Jim Arnosky books and The Living Forest series by Sam Campbell.
Also, Nature’s Friend Mag. is beautiful and full of info.
Nature’s workshop Plus is a great resource catalog for G-d honoring supplies.
http://www.workshopplus.com/
A book basket is a great a idea. however, it could be a basket of books about everything. Where they can go to find things that their own minds are exploring and interested in. I find I cannot deter my two from desiring books about whatever they are intersted in this week or month! If you’re going to use a base curriculum with assigned reading, then having a basket with the same kind of subject is somewhat redundant. Let it be an “explorer” box. My children love it when I say we’re going to explore! Everytime I order books from the library (online), I ask each child to pick 2 books about a topic they would like to know about.
Lastly, don’t worry, relax and enjoy! If you provide the base curriculum and provide great, literature rich science books, both directly (assigned reading) and indirectly (self-directed basket and encyclopedia’s), drawing and sketching supplies, the outdoors on a regular basis and experiment books and supplies they will catch a love of learning about G-d’s Creation and you’ll get it all covered and then some! Not to mention the wonder and joy in your voice and eyes as they watch and listen to you describe it.
March 2, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Bookworm
Participant
OK. Remember what state standards and “benchmarks” and all those things are for—to make sure that the public schools, teachers with 20+ kids, “cover” everything. Now–that is the goal. They do NOT “cover everything” It cannot be done. Public school scope and sequences don’t do it (even if they were perfectly followed–which they rarely are) WTM doesn’t do it. Neither does an approach with living books and Charlotte Mason. ]
What I found very, very helpful is to set up some target “goals” for each age. At this stage in my homeschooling, I’ve found out that a lot of things just don’t work very well. One of those things is “fact-based” education for kids under eight. It might sound good, but lists of definitions and “studying” a branch of science just really doesn’t stick. In a short period of time, the child has forgotten a lot of it. The same thing is true, for my kids, about grammar. I can drill them for an hour a day 300+ days a year at age 7, but not much really sticks–at age 10 I STILL am having to teach them the stuff I taught them at 7. So.
I decided that for my children, my goal for the sciences would be 1) For children under age 8– Delight, wonder, exploration, nurturing of interest and observational skills, with as much time outdoors and “hands-on” experiments (and experimenting!) as I can manage. For about ages 8-12, I add in a little bit more systematic an approach while continuing nature study. As someone else mentioned above, God’s Design science books are fabulous. Very thorough, interesting, well prepared for the teacher, good experiments that actually work, stories of scientists and discoveries scattered throughout. Then, after age 12-ish, each of my children so far has chosen to do very in depth science. So far, I have one who wants to be a veterinarian, one who wants to be a criminologist, and one who wants to be a dinosaur. (LOL) The oldest boy has far outstripped my actual scientific knowledge, and he did it without my drilling him on vocabulary when he was 7. 🙂 I give nature study and plenty of time for exploration, about 90% of the credit for my sons’ science success. The other ten percent was probably the good science programs I used. So.
I love your living book selections. Each of my child has had “favorite” books but anything by Clara Dillingham Pierson has been a hit, Fabre is a total hands-down favorite here (see Queen Homeschool for reprints of more of his books than just The Storybook of Science) and Sam Campbell is also a favorite. Jim Arnosky is terrific. Baskets of books on science topics are terrific–we do this, but I admit to letting the boys choose the topics. It does so happen that we usually have more dinosaur and physics and animal books than lovely wildflower books, but that’s OK. Since I’m not trying to “cover” anything, but light a fire of interest that explodes all on its own into deep knowledge, I don’t really CARE if they know animal skeletons and chemical reactions better than they do flower parts. It’ll be OK. 🙂
Charlotte Mason was very fond of using food or a meal as an illustration of what we as educators are trying to do. The snippety textbooks just don’t work for us–they give us a mandatory “one bite” of everything, when what we all desire is a beautifully spread banquet table rich with variety and beauty, from which we help the child find a fitting portion.
So relax! Get baskets of books, read living books, go out doors (again and again and again–never enough!) Do lots of experiments. If a child asks “Can I . . . ” or “What happens if . . . ” Then by all means say “Yes, . . . Let’s find out!” (Unless doing so would threaten life and property—like setting off rockets in the basement, tossing a bowling ball off the garage roof, or filling up the tub full and throwing in a cat . . . don’t ask me how I know these aren’t so good!)
Michelle D
March 3, 2008 at 12:17 am
JessicaTA
Member
So, I have permission to read fabulous living books in no particular order, do experiments, play outside with my kids and ignore any and all “standards” or “curriculum” until about 6th, 7th grade?
Can you tell my HEAD that? Lol.
🙂 Jessica
March 3, 2008 at 12:27 am
Rachel White
Participant
It’ll get used to the idea!
March 3, 2008 at 2:03 am
Karen Smith
Moderator
As a mom who has a very strong science background, let me assure you that you will not ruin your child’s academic future in science if you do not use a textbook, follow anyone’s scope and sequence, or try to model your study of science after state or national standards. If anything, using textbooks and following state/national standards may kill the love of learning you are working so hard to instill in your children. So often as moms we lose sight of nurturing the love of learning and focus instead on finishing the textbook we spent many dollars on or making sure our kids are learning at the same level as their traditionally schooled peers.
Through reading many good living books, doing many experiments, and studying nature as Charlotte Mason prescribed your children will have an excellent base to continue studying science more formally at an older age. BTW, not to plug our own book, but Hours in the Out-of-Doors explains all about nature study and Charlotte’s thoughts on teaching science.
My children (ages 12-17) were allowed to enjoy nature and science through books, experiments, and nature through the elementary years. We did not use any textbooks. Even before I discovered the Charlotte Mason method, I felt very strongly about my children discovering nature and science through exploration in the early years.
I realize that I have an advantage over many moms because of my background in science. However, any mom can go to the library and see the abundance of science related books at the elementary age level. You can easily plan a study in plants, then a study in insects, etc. just by looking at the shelves. Also, reading all you can about whatever interests your children today is an excellent way for them to learn. This week they may be interested in grasshoppers, next week it may be rocks.
A word of warning though. Be careful when choosing books to make sure that the information given in them is accurate. Besides the obvious problems with dinosaur and fossil books being very evolutionary, there are other science subjects that may not have accurate information. Science is by definition always changing as new discoveries are made. Sometimes these new discoveries show that what we thought we knew about something is no longer accurate. For example, we have an old book that explains baldness being caused by wearing a hat too much so that the sunlight can’t reach the hair roots. 🙂
Here are some book/author recommendations for various ages:
- Field guides—these are great for identifying your nature finds and finding accurate information. They are also great for browsing which can peak a child’s interest in an area they may not have thought of before.
- Jim Arnosky
- Millicent Selsam
- Seymour Simon
- Holling C. Holling
- David Macaulay
- Jean Craighead George (caution: tends to lean toward environmentalism)
- R. D. Lawrence for older teens
- James Herriot
- Gentle Ben by Walt Morey
- In Search of a Sandhill Crane by Keith Robertson
- Owls in the Family by Farley Mowat—his book Never Cry Wolf is also good, though for older teens.
I hope that helps.
March 3, 2008 at 4:33 am
JessicaTA
Member
Karen,
Other than selecting spines to read, how much should I direct? Should I try to cover the major topics or allow them to specialize, for example if my dd7 wants to learn all about birds- is it okay to spend whatever time she wants on this? Even if it’s a year, or two? I’m a structured person which is why I was drawn to WTM/Classical to begin with but I’ve realized that I started to forget to mother my children as well. That each day is a day of their childhood, I see real learning (including CM) as a way to have both- academics and a beautiful childhood to look back upon.
Should I aim for a general topic to be covered or really just let go and see where the kids want to go? I think having a loose plan will make me more comfortable and I’m willing to follow my kids’ lead- as dd7 is getting older she wants to know more about obscure topics including, “Mom, how do they make Matchbox cars?” (Thank God for How It Is Made!)
You have a background in science, how much knowledge do I have to bring to the table? Do I need to be reading ahead of them at all? Can we just figure it out together?
Deep down, I know I’m not going to fail them in this area because I have enthusiasm and they already see it and have caught on so really this is more about residual expectations coming from a public school education and only being in our 2nd year of homeschooling. Using WTM sort of instilled a clear cut way of educating and now I’m treading in mucky waters. I found comfort in WTM’s laid out structure but now I just want more and I feel the comfort slipping so I’m panicking a little. I know God will keep me from drowning but I feel more renegade than I ever have before. If you say, “I’m a Well-Trained Mind homeschooler” then there’s a good chance someone will say, “Okay, we use Sonlight. We’re not very different.” But this type of learning isn’t common, especially among the ABeka and Sonlight exclusive homeschoolers I know in real life.
These are things the Lord is working with me about, He knows I just want to snuggle on the couch, read fabulous stories to my children and go out and explore the world with them.
Thank you for your time and help,
Jessica
March 3, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Bookworm
Participant
Jessica, I’m not Karen. But a loose plan with flexibility can be good. That will help you to feel you are introducing your children to a variety of topics, but still capitalize on what is around you and what their interests are. You just want to be sure that you are ready if, while you are officially studying “birds”, your child finds a frog and wants to know all about them instead. 🙂 And plan around the seasons so you can use real observation whenever possible. One of the first official science books I bought my first year homeschooling, instructed us to study flower parts . . . in January. Hmm. LOL Flowers should be studied . . . WHEN THERE ARE FLOWERS TO LOOK AT. It took me a year or so to get this. Also, although I love the idea of doing nature study year-round as Charlotte recommended, it’s just not going to happen here. In the howling winter blizzards, we will be found snug inside, watching a nature video or taking the opportunity to mess around with kitchen chemistry, and occasionally watching our bird feeders.
I know what you mean about needing to tell your HEAD that it is OK to lose those crutches of scopes and sequences and national standards. But I really feel that as you begin to LIVE the CM way, your head will see all the benefits and come along for the ride. Now, we almost all have periodic “panic attacks” when we find that some other family’s child is doing X, Y, or Z, and we haven’t even covered that–but remind yourself of the benefits you see. One thing I’ve found helpful is keeping a very simple journal–all the moments that really mean something in our days–when a child really “gets” something, a good observation or question they came up with, how it felt to all experience something together. A “good moments” treasury, if you will. That is great insurance against those periodic panic attacks. You’ll be able to reassure yourself of what is really happening in your home.
I hope that you are reading Charlotte Mason’s actual volumes. I really think this will help you. CM is as definite an approach and method as WTM, although it’s not so spelled out about “use this book when” sort of thing. But as you familiarize yourself with her methods, you’ll find that you aren’t in murky waters. The sun is shining and the shadows have gone, there is tremendous wisdom and experience backing you, and you’ll find your way.
Best wishes in your journey from a former WTM’er!
Michelle D
March 3, 2008 at 3:13 pm
JessicaTA
Member
“I hope that you are reading Charlotte Mason’s actual volumes.”
I am, although I’m waiting for MY copies to come in the mail, I’m reading the library’s copy in spurts b/c I feel rushed. I’m feeling more secure after reading everyone’s input here, I love the idea of doing chemistry or physics inside when we’re unable to go outside. It’ll always be a work in progress but I think I’ve surpassed a few mental blocks with the help given here.
🙂 More excited than scared,
Jessica
March 3, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Karen Smith
Moderator
I agree with Michelle. Have a plan but be flexible. Along with your plan, your child can study whatever interests her. Also, remember that there may be times when your child has no special interest. That is okay, too. But when she shows an interest capitalize on it as she will learn best when the study is fueled by her interest.
And planning what you study based on the seasons is excellent advice! It is difficult to study say, insects, when it’s below freezing outside. 🙂
You have a background in science, how much knowledge do I have to bring to the table? Do I need to be reading ahead of them at all? Can we just figure it out together?
I confess that I don’t like prep work. So, no matter what the subject, if I don’t already know the material, I learn along with my kids. Science is one of those wonderful subjects in which it is easy to learn along with your kids. Find something that interests you or your kids, snuggle on that couch, and read about it together!
March 4, 2008 at 2:29 am
JessicaTA
Member
Thank you all so much! You’ve blessed me (and my children).
Grateful,
Jessica
July 22, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Diane
Member
Karen,
Can living books be used for high school science and still give a foundation for a possible science major? My son loves nature, found marine biology interesting, but I’m not sure if a textbook with the academia of memorizing definitions (Apologia???) is him. I almost hate to ask this, but how would you make this somewhat academic. (I live in a state where we are required to show learning.) Building a notebook?
Thank you for your thoughts.
Diane
July 22, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Bookworm
Participant
Diane, I ended up going with Apologia despite its outward resemblance to my own high school books of boredom . . uh, textbooks . . because it just seemed right to give this son a more “typical” course experience at this time. But I explored a LOT first! I haven’t tried the below, but here are my files on high school science for your perusal:
http://www.amazon.com/Science-nbsp-Books-nbsp-for-nbsp-Gifted-nbsp-High-nbsp-School-nbsp-Sudents/lm/1ZA3L3LR5R6Q/ref=cm_srch_res_rpli_alt/103-3483188-2803805
http://clepprep.tripod.com/cleplessonplans/
http://homepage.bushnell.net/~peanuts/science.html
http://www.friendlychemistry.com/FCOnlineindexpage.htm
http://charlottemason.tripod.com/hisci.html
https://www.qualitysciencelabs.com/home.php (we DID get this excellent quality lab course to go with Apologia, but these lab courses would also provide a GREAT accompaniment to a living books approach, I think, while still being a rigorous lab course. I’m very impressed with it! Their microscopes are also very reasonable–meaning, we could afford one. 🙂
http://www.scienceforhighschool.com/
http://www.pennygardner.com/sciencebks.html
Happy science hunting and I’m eager to hear what Karen has to say too!
Michelle D
July 22, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Karen Smith
Moderator
Diane,
Yes, living books can be used for high school science and still give a foundation for a possible science major. This is especially true if the high school science you want to cover is biology related. There are many, many living books in the biological fields. Just go to your local library and look at the shelves containing books on animals and plants! Your hardest task will be choosing the best ones from the not-so-good ones.
I’m not sure what your state requires as proof of learning, but if your son is pursuing a science major, you will want to make sure that science studies include labs, as these are important to colleges. Labs include experiments, observations, and in the case of biology, dissection. A notebook describing what was done in the lab, including drawings, is highly recommended. I would also have him do written narrations on what he is reading. Make sure he covers the basics of biology (cell structure and function, classification of organisms, etc.) but feel free to branch out to specific topics, such as marine life.
If your son is interested in a science major he will need more science than just where his interests lie. Colleges will be looking for a well-rounded science education. Your son will need to study biology, chemistry, and physics at the high school level so he will be prepared to tackle those courses at the college level. Chemistry and physics are harder to cover with living books so you may have to use textbooks for those courses.
I hope this helps.