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Help with dd5
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I don’t normally do this, but I’m pretty desperate for help with my almost 6yo dd. My husband and I have been praying fervently about this, even to the point of going up for altar ministry at church because we just don’t know what to do.
Our dd has a very unique personality. I have no doubts that God blessed our family with her to form our character just as much as to form her character. She and I have opposite personalities and frequently butt heads. She is my child who constantly spills and makes messes, who dawdles, who can’t sit still. I can’t even allow her to wear shoes during school time because she plays with them instead of listening to our lessons. I have had to take her back to tracing letters for copywork because she refused to write neatly and do her best. She is the reason I posted this past discussion on Spills.
We are at the end of our rope with her. She does have a very weak will, although we have had the discussion on making ourselves do even the things we don’t want to do several times. I have to remind her to do chores everyday. I have to remind her not to play in the water while she’s brushing her teeth everyday. I have to remind her to eat her food instead of playing three times a day. Natural consequences do not seem to work for her. Spankings don’t seem to make an impact even 10 minutes after the spanking. We have tried every attitude we know with her, from encouragement to impatience to treating her like a baby to anger.
Last week was awful with her. My husband came home from work one evening, and I just sat with him on the couch and cried. My heart is broken because I can’t seem to get through to my own daughter. I love her with such a passion that it hurts sometimes. But no amount of love seems to be able to get her to submit to our authority and stop dawdling, stop playing at mealtimes and when she shouldn’t, and stop all her other annoying behaviors. I have to be honest and say that my own daughter annoys me more than just about anything. I know that’s an awful statement, but it’s honest and real.
She seems to be our “difficult” child, the one we can’t figure out. I can’t quite explain her to you because I haven’t figured her out myself. I just know that I’ve run out of ideas, and God doesn’t seem to be hearing my prayers for her and for my own inabilities. I am extremely weak in this area and I really do need some strength and encouragement. I also covet your prayers. I need wisdom in this. I know God is developing my character and my reliance on Him, and I don’t want to fight Him because I’m discouraged.
Also, if you have any ideas at all for me, I’m all ears. At this point, I’m open to just about anything.
Thank you so much,
Lindsey
Oh Lindsey, I had tears in my eyes reading this! I have been wanting to post also about my battle with my 8 yr old! I so understand about not knowing how to impact a difficult child!
I too love my son very much! But the years since his birth have been hard! I feel like a failure too! He is strong willed, very intelligent, emotional, sensitive to tastes and pain, hard headed, talkative, worrisome, lack of trust,bossy, physically weak (not a big deal-except he whines I can’t do —-blank–), and can be OCD on things at times! On the other hand, he is loving, funny, intelligent, sensitive to other’s pain, loves the Lord, and sweet. I try to think about the positive…but is hard when some days he can’t shake whateve mood he is in. So it may go on for a few days..and then I am worn out!
He was the fussy baby. Never slept. Didn’t like much of anything unless you were to hold him. He talked your ears off once he learned to talk! He was very exact and purposeful at playing with his toys. He didn’t and still doesn’t like mixed foods, odd foods, certain sounds and smells. He has some sensory issues.
I don’t mean to hijack your post! But wanted you to know that I feel your pain! I too am at a loss! Sometimes I want to run away!! And I do! Then when I come back, I am refreshed and see the positives. I know that his personality will be used for God. But I want to be able to guide him..and it is hard when you feel like you are not getting through! It seems that nothing changes! And as you, we have tried A-Z.
All I can say is just keep on keeping on. Love her, hug her, and love her some more. Get away for a night by yourself and come back with a new perspective. My husband lets me get away at least 3 times a yr. I have to for my sanity!
Pick up the phone and talk to a dear friend who will not condemn. Spill your guts, cry, and get uplifted by her. Someone whom you know that knows how you love your daughter and just need to talk, cry, fuss, and hear “your doing a great job, keep it up” I don’t know what I would do without my dear friend!
I know you are already praying but pray some more. Little prayers along the day. I feel sometimes my prayers are not being answered about my son. Then when something opposite happens (good) that normally would happen(bad) I praise my son and praise the Lord!
I am not much help! But I feel your pain! And know that you DO love your daughter…just as I love my son! I hope we can see from others that they too have at least one difficult child. And to hear from older mothers who has a difficult child and are now older. How have they turned out? And did you ever think you were doing a good job?
Lindsey,
I read this a while ago and let my brain mull it over a bit. This is what I came up with. It is based on my experience with my kids (I have a couple who are similar to this).
First of all, she is YOUNG. Almost 6 is just a baby yet. My just recently turned 6 year old has just recently been ready for anything resembling school. Giving her another 6-9 months to mature may just help with most of the issues you’re seeing (in school). Once she’s older, she will probably be able to progress much more rapidly. For chores, you could try the chore paks mentioned later or give her one chore/task with a timer set and have her report back to you by the time the timer goes off.
Second, have you checked to see if she does understand the lesson when she is fiddling around with things (shoes or otherwise)? At that age, one of my kids couldn’t concentrate when he had to sit still. Sitting still seemed to use all his focus and there was none left for the lesson. If this is the case, have her sit next to you with something small to fiddle with (that won’t cause distraction to your son and you).
Third, she sounds ADDish. Based on your previous posts, I’m guessing that even if that were the case you’d rather avoid meds. My 8 year old is VERY much this way. This is what we’ve done for him. He can do his work before anyone else (but me) is up. He is now allowed to get out of bed as soon as he wakes as long as he remains quiet and works on his school. He can get done with his independent work in 1-2 hours this way (a math lessons, 2 explode the code pages, 1 chapter reading in lit with drawing narration, 2 chapters-short- reading in science with drawing narration). Once everyone else is awake, this will take him ALL day (from 9 til 5 or so and he’s still not some times done even with me constantly being on him). Chores: we use the Maxwell’s chore paks. When he has a “pak” attached to him, he actually remembers what to do itand the order to do it and will finish in a reasonable amount of time with limited goofing. If not, it’s just like your daughter.
As far as the refusals to do good work, I would say that part is a discipline issue. In our family, this means a combination of spankings, loss of free time, extra work, loss of special activities (depends on the offense).
HTH, Rebecca
2flowerboys,
Thank you for understanding. My dd too was difficult from day 1. She never slept, cried constantly, wouldn’t nurse, seemed to pull away from me from the day she was born. I told my husband the other day (as I was crying on his shoulder) that I have lived with guilt everyday since the day she was born because I feel so disconnected from her. This has been such a hard, heavy burden to carry; and I have been too ashamed to admit that I’ve been carrying it. Good mothers aren’t supposed to feel that way is what the enemy tells me each and everyday.
I finally just had to get it out there and admit that this has been a struggle for almost 6 years. Thank you, 2flowerboys, for at least letting me know I’m not alone. I feel like I’m climbing up a never-ending mountain. It’s always two steps forward, one step back with my daughter. As soon as I think we’re making progress, she goes right back into her old habits.
I seek wise counsel here because I just don’t know what else to do. I would like to hear from you older moms who have experienced what we are experiencing. How did your child turn out? What did you do to get through each day?
I really am not trying to give you a sob story. I’m just exhausted from going through this day after day for years and years and feeling like a hamster on a wheel.
Lindsey,
I don’t have any advice but wanted to tell you that I am praying for you right now!
May His peace and wisdom fill your heart.
Jen
Rebecca,
I just saw your post. I think we were posting at the same time. Yes, we have suspected ADD for quite some time. We will not give her meds, but changed her diet about three years ago. (We suspected it even then.) We have removed all artificial anything, eat all organic, are gluten-free, and only consume raw dairy products. That helped for a while, but now it seems like she’s regressed.
I know she’s just 5 and still a baby in so many ways. I have to remind myself of that often. I was very adamant for a long time about not starting school with her until the recommended CM age of 6, but I could tell she felt left out. You are probably right that, after maturing some, she will catch on to things much quicker. I know she understands our lessons. She has given excellent narrations in the past. Even today, I gave her her first silent, assigned reading (1 chapter from More Days Go By). She narrated it with accuracy and ease. Of course, I praised her abundantly. Not two hours before, during our history reading, she was disruptive, wouldn’t sit still, wouldn’t stop playing with her dress, etc. She couldn’t give me one sentence resembling a narration. I have given her things to hold on to during our reading times to keep her hands occupied (bubble wrap, a sock, stuffed animal), but that seems to distract her more.
I will look into the suggested chore packs. I have heard of them before, but probably should investigate them a little more. Thank you for that.
Our consequence for doing less-than-your-best is to do the task again. Our rule is “do it nice or do it twice”, and we inforce that consistently. She always does better work the second time around, but still doesn’t seem to learn the lesson that she should do her best the first time. *sigh*
Anyway, I really appreciate your suggestions and understanding. Thank you so much.
Lindsey,
I can’t say much at the moment – we are still battling illness here – but your 5 year old sounds a lot like my 7 year old daughter. Definitely give her time to mature – it helps a lot. I am so sorry I can’t say any more right now, but wanted to let you know you are not alone.
Gaeleen
Lindsey,
I will pray for you, and respond to your post in detail as I get extra time later tonight. I am sure you will get some godly advice from these ladies! 🙂 hang in there!!
Lindsey, I’m so sorry too, to hear your heart regarding this child and your desires for her. It’s so hard to feel like you are praying for wisdom and not getting any sometimes. The process of sanctification for us by our children is painful!
I was just wondering what kind of “natural consequences” you have tried before? I have posted this before, but food is a great motivator in our house and I just wondered if you ever tried setting the timer with a meal (for a reasonable amount of time) and then if she’s not done by then, taking the food away? It has never taken my kiddos more than once or twice of losing a meal to correct whatever problem they are having (cleaning downstairs quickly, doing laundry, etc.) But some kiddos don’t care that much about food so maybe she’s like that, but it’s one way to reduce dawdling in several areas, at least for our family.
I’ve also posted about encouragement pocket charts we use, each child has a pocket chart with their picture or name on it and bible verses pertaining to specific habits we would like to see them have (or not have), patience/diligence/obedience/peacemaker/unselfish,etc. They earn slips that go in the pockets. For your daughter, her pocket slips could be for diligence. My kiddos have to get 20 slips (but you could even start with 3 and work up so she’d have some victory) and then get to choose a reward (camp in their room for a night, a pack of gum, ice cream cone, sleep in Mommy/Daddy’s bed, etc.) It really helps me look for the positive and motivates them to do their best.
(Proverbs 12:27 The lazy man does not roast what he took in hunting, But diligence is man’s precious possession. Proverbs 15:19 The way of the lazy man is like a hedge of thorns, But the way of the upright is a highway.)
I also was thinking that you might just need to stick pretty close to her for a while(maybe you are already doing that) to train/retrain about your expectations for how to do things and for how long, maybe even bring an egg timer and set it a few times for teeth brushing, etc.
We also have a couple children who don’t focus very well. When giving them something to fiddle with doesn’t work, or distracts others, they have to sit on their hands and it is a good physical reminder to sit still. Sometimes if it’s the mouth that’s causing the problem, they cover their mouth until we are done with the activity.
I hope that all made sense and might help a bit, I’m sure you will get other wise ideas from wiser, more experienced moms than me too:) Adrienne
I too thought about her age. But we as moms just know when it is NOT an age thing. My son does not have ADHD or ADD, he has more a sensory integration disorder. He can concentrate and complete tasks. Albeit, I may have to ask 2 times! He is very intelligent. He taught himself how to read by age 4. I know that gifted children are lacking in other areas. He is not your typical gifted child…but he is smart. I wouldn’t call him gifted.
Have you checked out sensory issues? There is a great website out there that has a checklist to see if your child is over sensitive or under sensitive…can’t think of proper names right now! Also another thing that helps me…when I remember it-ha ha-is to know your child’ love language and tempermant. You can take the love language test at Gary Chapman’s website. And look up tempermants-Meloncholy, Sanguine, Phlegmatic, and Choloric. My son is Meloncholy. Marita Littauer her mother Florence and Tim LaHaye has written books on this subject. (and there is one out there about children’s tempermants) And my son’s love language is Quality Time. My son and I are opposite tempermants, therefore I don’t understand him sometimes and he doen’t understand me! LOL!
HTH, like I said I am in the same boat. But these things have helped me at some time along the way.
Hey,
Lindsey, your second post brought something else to mind. Have you considered Sensory Processing Disorder? Your description of her as a baby suggests that there is something sensory going on. There is a book called The Out-Of-Sync Child that is supposed to be wonderful for helping with this (I haven’t read it yet but a close friend has). You may want to check your library for it.
-Rebecca
Your story brings to mind the experience of a child I know – not one of my own but a child I am very close to. She is very much as you described, but in public school, and first grade basically broke her spirit. The teacher she had that year became obsessed with the child’s fiddling and fidgeting – especially the nonstop playing with her shoes, which you mentioned having a problem with as well. She was constantly being”disciplined” for this fidgeting behavior, and I witnessed several heartbreaking incidents as she, her teacher, and her family struggled to “correct” her behavior.
One thing that the child told me that stuck with me was that as soon as she got in trouble, her brain didn’t work right anymore and she couldn’t think straight after that. I am still close to this girl and she is now in 5th grade, still at public school. I can say without a doubt that the years that she has had the most happiness and academic success are the years when she has a teacher that can overlook/ignore her fidgeting. And it has reduced dramatically as she has matured.
I believe there are some sensory issues at work with her, as she is always saying her clothes itch, she only likes certain sheets and blankets, she seems to need white noise to sleep.
All that was to say, as the ladies above have, you are not alone. There are other moms and kids out there feeling the same way that you are. Just persevere, with love, and (whether we like it or not LOL) these days will pass and soon your daughter will be a young lady. You sound like a very aware and responsive mother. Taking steps to bring some loving acceptance to your relationship with your daughter, I think, will bring you some peace. I read recently about the concept of an “orchid child” – and the way the article defined this type of child does not echo your situation at all, but bear with me – and I love the vision of working so hard to nurture a difficult child until they bloom, beautifully. I think it is a lovely positive picture to keep in mind on the days when the nurturing is tough.
Adrienne,
Consequences?? Where to begin? For a job poorly done, she is required to do the task over again. Whether it’s shoddy copywork or laundry folded poorly, she has to do it nice or do it twice. For her mealtime playing and dawdling, I have not set a timer, as I don’t want her to feel rushed; but I have taken food away many times. I don’t ever use food as a natural consequence unless the offense is food-related, such as playing with food or at the table, choosing to talk too much or act silly instead of eating, etc. For playing in the water when she’s supposed to brush her teeth (before bed), she is not allowed to be part of our family read-aloud time. This consequence works for a couple of days, but not long-term. She also has to recite Bible verses related to her offense. For not doing as I ask, especially when we’re out, she has to hold on to my leg or put her hand in my pocket. When she was constantly spilling, I didn’t allow her to have anything to drink but water.
I like your idea of pocket charts, but do you feel like you’re bribing your children to have good behavior? Not that I’m accusing; I just don’t want my daughter to obey or be diligent just because she’s going to get ice cream later. I guess I’m kind of on the fence about that one and should probably pray about it more.
I haven’t thought about having her sit on her hands! That makes total sense! Thank you for everything you took the time to post. I really appreciate it!
2flowerboys,
I totally understand what you mean by “it’s not an age thing”. It seems like I’m telling my husband all the time that she’s almost six years old and should be able to do such-and-such. We have definitely talked about her being gifted, but she hasn’t done anything like teaching herself to read at 4 to prove that she really is “gifted”. When I saw your post and the others who discussed sensory processing issues, I immediately started looking into that. It seems that may be the “answer” I’ve been looking for all this time. We are very familiar with the personality types and love languages. How funny that your son’s personality and love language are the same as my dd’s! Maybe that really is an indication that I’m not making all this up! ha!
Rebecca,
I called the library, and they do have the book you suggested. They are holding it for me. Thanks!
Gem,
Thank you for your kind, encouraging words. I am looking into the possibility of dd having a sensory issue, as that is the ONLY thing that makes sense thus far. I pray I have not broken her spirit for all the discipline I’ve issued for her wiggling, dawdling, fidgeting, disrupting, etc. If that’s just the way her brain is wired, I hope God gives me grace to handle it. I’ve been trying to bring loving acceptance into my relationship with my dd for a very long time now. I don’t know if I’ve made any progress or not, but I hope that I have. She completely fits your orchid analogy.
Are any of you familiar with sensory processing disorders enough to give me some direction? I’m not positive she has an issue in that area, but I’m definitely not opposed to investigating it further. From what I have looked up, it seems she could likely have something going on in that mind of hers.
Thank you all again! Your encouragement is priceless,
Lindsey
You sound like you are doing great with the consequences, my first born is like that, it will work for a couple of days (or times:) and then it’s not motiviating. I felt like I had to really search and search until I found the one thing that really got to him, and then he loses that privilige. Maybe as your daughter gets older you will be able to find something like that, that is an ongoing motivator.
As to the pocket charts (no accusation taken:) and bribing, my husband and I also discussed that issue for a while. I don’t like the idea of bribing either, but I think there is a difference between bribing and rewarding. For example, if I have a child who is screaming at the store, and I buy a piece of candy and say “please stop screaming” and then give it to them, I’ve rewarded poor behavior. Bribing in my opinion seems more like when your child is out of control and you don’t know what else to do. (Not using Biblical routes first like spanking in love, admonishing, natural consequences, etc.) I also agree we don’t want our children to obey simply for a reward, so we constantly stress working for the Lord and not for men, doing everything to glorify Christ, etc. However, the Bible does clearly speak of rewards for those who have been faithful to the Lord throughout their life, be it jewels in our crown, etc. So just like God doesn’t want us to obey simply for the reward, the reward system is still in place and I think it’s okay to use that with our own children. The real world also uses a rewards system, if they ever have a job, it’s based on rewards: raises, promotions, etc, so I actually think its’ great training for that. Eventually the goal will be to not have the charts, but while they are so young(mine are under 7) I think it’s very helpful for our family. The Bible also is big on encouraging others, and while we can do this verbally for sure, a physcial form of encouragment with the pocket charts goes a long way with my kiddos and helps me focus on the negatives so much. (and Daddy can see at a glance what’s in their pockets and which traits are going well for them)
I would understand though if you decided it was still too much like bribing for your family, and maybe if I’m seeing the bribing issue incorrectly someone can correct me. But if you ever decided to try it and had more questions feel free to PM me, Adrienne
Hi, Lindsey:
My son, almost 10, has been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD-Inattentive and Auditory Processing Disorder. We are also under evaluation for Sensory Integration Disorder (in the area of Auditory Processing) and also Aspergers. I would suggest looking at Auditory Processing Disorder. APD symptoms almost exactly mimic ADHD, and co-morbidity rates are between 30% to 70% for those children who have ADD/ADHD (depending on what/whose research you believe). By my own research into the research, it appears that for children who have an inattentive form of ADHD – the rates of having Auditory Processing is at 50 to 70 percent. Treatment for APD is different than ADHD. I am still working on figuring out how to help my son for each of these conditions and have not found the perfect balance yet. For us diagnoses have helped with my expectations for my son. I have a better picture of my son’s strengths and weaknesses, and his capabilities.
We definitley have our times and I do not have perfect advice but, for my son, he is highly sensitive to criticism, which for us can just be “Austin stop doing that”. Many children with ADD/ADHD are suprisingly perfectionists (based on research not only my own observations). At some points, if they feel or perceive that they cannot do everything right, they stop trying to do anything right. For my son, we work slowly on one habit at a time, be that a personal habit or a school work realted habit (we try to do one school, one personal at a time). Sometimes we have to repeat. Sometimes not. For daily chores, inlcuding those of personal hygeine, we have a white board that he checks off. He has a morning list, an afternoon list, and an evening list. He checks off and then brings to me. There are definitley “seasons” that we have to use the checklists everyday, and times when he does not need the checklist at all.
I would also remember that if your daughter does indeed have ADD/ADHD, the brain is not as developed as other children her age, there is a proven delay in the development in the prefrontal cortex, which controls planning (I need to do x), judgment (if I do y, the consequence is z), attention, impulse control, even to some extent motor skills (fine and gross), etc. It is not uncommon for kids with ADD to have delays in auditory processing speed, auditory memory, etc, even absent an actual Auditory Processing Disorder. When my son’s attention was tested (this is a computer based test administered by a psychologist), my son’s attention was less than HALF of that of the average child his age. In the area of Audotry Processing, in filtering competing sounds (i.e. mom’s voice, the AC unit running, a door closing, a car going by, etc.) the average for my son’s age is 93%, my son’s ability is at 17.5%. Children with ADHD typically have a greater sensitivity to sounds (based on the attention aspect of auditory processing), even absent the APD. So we have to work at his level, not at what level a Human Growth and Development would say is appropriate. I give my son’s examples only as reference. My son cannot work at the same level as an average child his age. Although he has a high IQ, I have to work at my son’s level. I struggle with this daily. My son’s needs for continous affection and encouragement sometimes drives me crazy!
I know this sounds like an ugly statement, but for us, lowering my expectations in my son’s areas of weakness has helped me relate to my son so much better. That is not to say that my son does not have expectations, just that I try to be working not on my preconceived notions of what my son “should” be doing or what anyone else says my son should be doing, but working on my son’s areas of weakness based on what I know my son can do.
As far as writing goes, a lot of children with ADD/ADHD have great difficulty with writing, both from an organizational standpoint and a fine motor skills standpoint. My son works on handwriting but it is so difficult for him, that I have had to relax my expectations. Many psychologists that I have worked with and consulted with, state that for ADD/ADHD children – writing is the most difficult area for an ADD child to improve on. I try to tell myself that we could have a doctor or lawyer in the making, because not one of them have good handwriting!
I highly recommend the book “Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World” by Jeffrey Freed and Laurie Parsons, for any parent who suspects ADD/ADHD. This book changed my life. I did and do the exercises and I cry often at the breakthroughs we make. I cannot tell you how many times I have read it. My son is still in public school (though we are praying, praying, praying for the ability to homeschool) and I am fighting the medication pressure and this book solidified my resolve not to cave.
I just want to let you know that I feel your pain in this situation. I wish I had better advice. You and your daughter will be in our prayers. I know how difficult it can be to help a child with these issues but I try to remember daily that our child is fearfully and wonderfully made.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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