Name: Spreading the Feast Gathering
Start: 2025-07-11T00:00:00-05:00
End: 2025-07-12T23:59:59-05:00
Location: LaGrange, KY

Tagged: Grammar

This topic has 18 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 8 months ago by sarah2106.

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September 29, 2016 at 8:08 am
Ashley
Participant
First of all, I am new to the Charlotte Mason way of school. This is our first real year of homeschooling and I need help with grammar. (I have a Kindergartner and a 4th grader.)
We are currently using English Lessons Through Literature (level 3) for my son who is in 4th grade. We have, in the past, used First Language Lessons for the Well Trained Mind. Although it was a very good curriculum, my son started to dread doing grammar from all of the repetition and diagramming — it was so redundant and boring for him. I didn’t like that grammar was becoming…well, dead to him. So we switched to ELTL. This curriculum is described as being a mix of Charlotte Mason and Classical education. I love the idea behind this curriculum with the literature, but I am finding that it is taking us a really long time to complete a lesson — reading the chapter in the scheduled literature book, going over the actual lesson, reading the poetry selection and fable, and then completing the exercises, dictation, and copywork. We already do literature and poetry reading outside of this curriculum as well as dictation, so we have a tendency to skip over these parts because they are repeats for us.
I guess I would like to know how anyone else who uses this curriculum schedules out the lessons? We do follow their suggestion and complete three lessons a week.
I have been looking around for a Charlotte Mason grammar curriculum that doesn’t take so long to complete but that is still solid. Most of the Charlotte Mason grammar curriculum that I have previewed seem so…well, light. I guess what I mean is that they don’t seem to be very in-depth and they appear to be behind as far as grade levels compared to more traditional grammar curriculum. I am afraid that if I use a traditional Charlotte Mason grammar program that my child will fall behind.
I love the Charlotte Mason idea of shorter lessons and the ELTL lessons just seem to be taking us so long. Also, I feel like learning three new grammar lessons in a week is a bit much for him at this point in time. It seems like he is reading a lesson and trying to digest it and figure out how it works and before he can finish getting a real solid handle on it, he has to start diving into another one. I’m sure I am just doing this wrong because it seems like such a great curriculum. I feel so silly.
Could anyone maybe comment on any of these grammar programs?…
Language Lessons for the Elementary Child by Sandi Queen
English for the Thoughtful Child by Mary F. Hyde, Cynthia A. Shearer
Using Language Well by Sonya Shafer
Simply Grammar by Charlotte Mason
Introductory Language Lessons by Lawton Bryan Evans (this one is an old one published back in 1908 I believe. It’s free on google books)
Thoughts? Help? Suggestions??? Thanks.
September 29, 2016 at 8:57 am
retrofam
Participant
I have tried a few grammar programs over the years. Winston Grammar is my favorite, but we don’t start it until 5th grade. For 6th grade my dd used Language Lessons for… for other reasons, but she did get some grammar with that. Language Lessons is considered grammar light by many.
For 7th grade we are repeating Winston Grammar Basic because my dd needs the review. She only uses it once per week.
Next year she will do Winston’s Advanced level. I like Winston because they use cards for the parts of speech. This helps with understanding and the fun factor.
I used Simply Grammar with my younger kids and it was ok. Sorry, I don’t remember a lot about it.
Hope this helps.
September 29, 2016 at 9:18 am
retrofam
Participant
Washington Reads has a grammar card game called ” Words at Work ” levels 1 and 2 that I may try in the future. We use their reading card games.
http://www.washingtonreads.com/intro-new2.html

September 29, 2016 at 3:55 pm
Rachel White
Participant
I’m not familiar with that exact curriculum, but there’s no curriculum which cannot be tweaked.
Instead of something new, since you like the content, how about stretching out the week, doing about 20 min. a day? What’s the difference between the “lesson” and the “exercises”?
For example:
Monday- read lit. with an oral narration.
Tues. – ask child for review of yesterday’s material orally and then do lesson(set timer to not go beyond 20 men.). Also, could this Lesson portion be done orally?
Wed.- do the exercises you mentioned. I assume is nuts and bolts grammar, so do on paper.
Thurs. – copy work
Fri- dictation of whatever his copywork was from the day before.
Since you’re skipping dictation and poetry from that curriculum, schedule those on a different day. Though, he should have copy work at least 3 days a week, IMO. 
If you like the copy work from the curriculum, then just have do it on Monday or Tuesday.
This way you’ll still get the quality of the material, while adjusting for CM timing. Slow down if needed. IMO, don’t skip fables, but use them 1x a week as reading at bedtime or during lunch.
If there’s info I need to know about this curriculum which would help you adjust it, just let me know more details.
Personally, I think 4th is too young for diagramming.
September 29, 2016 at 4:37 pm
Salina Fedrick
Participant
Hello, I am using Simply Grammar with my 8th grade son, and it is for grades 4-12. Short lessons (which CM suggests), but thorough. It can be taught orally or the student can write out some of the exercises. There is some narrating with the pictures in the book. I think it’s mind-engaging. My son seems to like it instead of the traditional workbook approach. 🙂
September 29, 2016 at 5:42 pm
Monica
Participant
I love ELTL, although Level 3 with all of the diagramming isn’t my favorite level. Also, I almost always put my kids in a level behind their actual grade level in ELTL. It just feels like a better fit. I didn’t feel the diagramming was a good fit for my son when he was in third!
Most importantly, though, when I use that curriculum my kids get each book on audio (I download a version from Librivox) and they listen to it during their free time. Reading each chapter, particularly last year when I had three kids in two different levels, just isn’t feasible.
After that is taken off of my plate, the lessons only take about 20 minutes each day (we do it 3x/week). We don’t do every passage for copywork, usually just the literature selection, and for level three I only had my son copy for 5 minutes per day. That was literally his limit.
What I didn’t do, though, was cut any poetry, picture study, or fables. For me, those things make ELTL a rich and beautiful curriculum.
September 29, 2016 at 7:37 pm
sarah2106
Participant
I struggled with ELTL, I felt like there was a lot of jumping around. Read a poem here, copy this, read this… But it could have just been me because I still think it is a good program 🙂
My kids use ULW and SW together. I really like it! I much prefer the dictation selections over the ELTL dictation selections. I also much prefer doing picture study on poetry on days that work for me, not when told by ELTL (that is why I jumped around, it did not work on the day suggested so I would have to make a note to go back to it and then would not get back to it on another day).
ULW is not long or involved, but it is to the point with grammar. It uses observation so the student has to look at the passage for answers. My ODS in book 1 recently had a question of “What did the sentence start with? Why do you think it started like that?” The answer was a capital letter. Now when he transcribes he will stop and say “wait, I need a capital letter it is the beginning of a sentence” By looking for the answers, not just being “fed” the answers so far it seems like the information is really sinking in. I like that it uses the SW selections so that spelling and grammar tied together. It took me a long while to trust the idea of waiting for formal grammar, but I think it does work. When my DD was in 4th she was doing ULW and I was “worried” that she would not have enough “in depth” grammar so we did Jr. Analytical Grammar along side (just two days per week). I don’t think it was necessary at all looking back on it and it was just busy work. She did not retain much and it did not improve her writing skills or anything. What does it matter if she can diagram a sentence, but doesn’t enjoy writing a nicely thought out sentence 🙂
Right now I am planning on doing ULW for the next few years (my oldest is in part 1 of book 2) and then thinking about something “to the point” like “Get Smart Grammar” when they are a bit older to reinforcement all they learned with ULW. Then again, by the time we get to that point, I might feel that it is not even necessary that ULW was the right amount and no need for extras.
I would suggest reading through SCM forum blog posts about language arts and the natural progression of grammar. I see that as my kids mature, read more challenging books their grammar is improving in how they speak and write I look forward to seeing them continue to grow and develop with out “drilling” the fun out of learning 🙂
September 29, 2016 at 9:34 pm
Rebekah
Participant
I’m using ELTL 3 with my 5th grader and he complains abut the length of the lessons. Tho he complains about everything involving writing, so I don’t know. Mostly it’s just the number of components that make up each lesson I think. He keeps thinking he’s done, but there’s another/different activity still. I really like the grammar instruction. The poems and picture study I am doing, rather than as a group, simply because since it’s already planned so it gets done. Both those things were getting dropped. A lot. I have been having him narrate every fable, but I’m thinking of just reading them for fun (except the ones specified for narrating). He narrates from other stuff daily. All the alphabetizing and copia exercises we do orally. Each lesson has a copywork and a dictation passage. And I’m not sure how I like doing both. The Copywork passage does seem pretty long. The dictation passage is different, and not taken from the literature.
But my son is able to do the work, so maybe I should just continue as written? Idk. I’m not sure if this is a good amount of writing and I’ve just been letting him get away with too little?? (definitely a possibility. Lol) Do I dictate the Copywork passages instead? But then they’re so long. Maybe I should just pick one passage a day from what’s offered. If we do dictation, skip the Copywork? I could give him the Copywork on a non ELTL day. But then, one dictation sentence doesn’t seem like enough for an 11yo boy. There seems to be about six Copywork and dictation passages each week. I need to spread these over the week better I think.
He CAN do it. He’s complaining about it, but he complains about everything and it is a jump up in the amount of writing, so complaining is to be expected. It’s only been 5 weeks I think, so maybe he’s still adjusting. I do think the complaints about the length of the Copywork are lessening. 🙂
September 30, 2016 at 12:03 am
cdm2kk
Participant
Well, I tried several things the past few years and my kids retained nothing for 3 years. I was beyond frustrated and nervous and worried. I then found Michael Clay Thompson’s Grammar Program (I don’t do the reading part). I will tell you that it is pricy, but so far I have only purchased the Teacher’s manuals and have been fine.
Anyway, it is a mix of CM feel and part Classical with a little Montessori. A quick synopsis – you teach the full year of grammar in the first 6-9 weeks. Sounds crazy, I know, but it works, somehow, and to make it sound even crazier….. the grammar book is set up similar to a story book that you read together. Level one is about a Fish named Mud. My kids and I are laughing and reading a grammar book together! My kids were what I considered behind and I purchased the first level and figured since it was meant for kids younger than them, we could fly through it and we did, but it was challenging too. I completed the entire year of first level in about 4 months. So we did a cram session and they learned more from that than they did in 3 years, when I think of all those wasted hours of going through Well Trained Mind and the rest…. We are now doing the next level, which is their level and we are still sailing right through. We started school this year mid August and we already finished the grammar book. Now, so they don’t forget what they learned, they analyze one sentence a day. It isn’t diagramming, but better. I have the rest of the year set up like this now that we have finished the grammar book, which we did everyday until done. Day 1 we will now work out of the English book, Day 2 is Poetry Book, Day 3 is the Vocabulary book, Day 4 & 5 is the Writing composition Book. I spend about 15 minutes a day. The curriculum ties all the books together and it just works. Also, I have them copy scripture once a week 5-10 min. I have them narrate history readers daily 3-5 minutes, I require between 5-10 sentences. They could not do this until this year.
My kids are ages 10 & 11 and they know all 8 parts of speech and can identify them in a sentence. They know parts of a sentence (subject, Predicate, Direct Object, Indirect Object, and Subject Complement). They know several different types of phrases (prepositional, appositive, and the verbals: Gerund, participle, and infinitive). They also know an Independent clause from a dependent clause and can identify a simple, compound, or complex sentence structure. Finally, they know the four sentence purposes, declarative, interrogative, imperative, and exclamatory.
They seriously learned all that from March to June and then we picked it up again mid August to present. I find them willing to write sentences now. They are confident during this subject where we use to have tears and grumbling.
I know every method/curriculum doesn’t work for everyone and we were blessed to finally find what works for us and I hope it inspires you not to give up.
I have changed things every year we have home schooled, getting more and more CM, but the language arts always threw us for a loop. It has always felt like I was treading water and some days flat out drowning.
This year we are finishing in about 4 hours so my kids are getting a thorough course load (math, language arts, history, science, music, art, geography, religion, lots of literature and even a foreign language: ASL) and lots of free time to pursue their own interests as well. You can do this!
I had never ever thought of home schooling until I decided to pull my child out of public and I could find no other place that was better. My thought going into home schooling was that I certainly couldn’t do worse than the public school was doing! LOL I have no teaching training other than what God has bestowed in my hours of need…Ha! So, if I can do it, anyone can.
Patience, Love, Open mind and heart, and discipline are all you need. hope this helps encourage you through this. God Bless.
September 30, 2016 at 1:05 pm
Ashley
Participant
Thank you so much to all of you wonderful ladies!!! I so truly appreciate all of your advice and thoughts. You have all helped me so much.
Rachel — thank you for your advice on breaking down the lesson. I had briefly thought about doing that before but than decided not to because that meant we wouldn’t finish the book “on time”. I was afraid that in stretching out a lesson it would cause my son to fall behind. Again, this is our first year teaching the Charlotte Mason way and I am still trying to figure out our rhythm for the school day as far as lesson lengths and what not. Grammar has just been seeming to take a really long time to complete and I honestly feel like my son is having a difficult time actually retaining the actual grammar lesson. Almost like there is so much going on in the ELTL lesson (lots of “jumping around” like sarah2106 mentioned) that he loses focus or something.
I do plan on having him do a more intense grammar program when he is older. Although I admit I don’t really know when a good age/ grade is for that.
September 30, 2016 at 2:06 pm
Ashley
Participant
Sarah2106 – I have looked into Using Language Well and the only thing that concerns me is that it appeared to be somewhat “behind” (to me). Maybe that’s because I’m holding it up to a typical grammar program. When did you start using it with your kids? And did you start them all with the first book? I really want to use Using Language Well but in all honesty it scares me. It is so different from what we are currently using (ELTL) and what we have used in the past (First Language Lessons). I feel if I were to use Using Language Well, that I would need to supplement with something else to make it a thorough, on-pace program.
September 30, 2016 at 3:34 pm
sarah2106
Participant
What are you concerned about them being behind in? That they don’t know specifically the 8 parts of speech? Or can’t diagram? Through observation, copying passages, written narrations there is so much practice. Learning the actual names for the parts of speech can be something learned really quickly at a later age/grade, even diagramming can be learned rather quickly. I hear waiting until 7th or even 8th grade.
I started ULW last year with my DD in 4th grade. We started near the end of the first half of the book and worked into the 2nd half of book 1. I chose this starting point based on the SW passages that she would be using for dictation. With dictation you want the student to just have a couple words per passage that are new. Then I went back through the ULW book and reviewed anything that might be new to her so that she would be “caught up” with where we started. This year she started with book 2 (5th grade). My ODS started book 1 this year in 3rd grade.
Grammar and mechanics come up all the time. I remember last year she had a ULW exercise that brought up quotations. Had the student find and make notice of them and then figure out why there were there. Because it was a direct quote. The next step was studying for the dictation. By studying and noticing the punctuation, quotations and spelling of words when she did the dictation exercise it put all those grammar skills into practice. Not exercise after exercise of “put the quotations in the correct spot”.
Every family is different. I have a friend that can not give up formal grammar, and that works for them 🙂 My thought would be to not allow the curriculum to become “drudgery” or take the fun out of writing by correcting every grammar error in a written narration. Every year I have “relaxed” a bit more, and am really seeing the benefits of CM way. My kids enjoy writing, and my daughter will write a full page narration. Is the spelling or grammar 100% correct, no! BUT she has improved so much and if I review it with her she will 9 times out of 10 notice her own errors. She will often tell me “If I read it out loud, I can hear where the comma goes” or “It makes more sense if I write it this way instead”. She does not get offended and enjoys writing and easily puts her thoughts onto paper. That is something I always struggled with, still do, I think because I am always waiting to be corrected. My DD isn’t, she writes knowing that she has room to improve, but she will get there over time 🙂
SW might seem “behind” but like other CM methods, I think that is because it doesn’t drill the information. So there are not pages of the same information repeated. It expects full attention so the student is told once, and expected to remember and continue to add to their knowledge while reviewing through the natural progression of copy work or transcription onto dictation and then written narrations later on.

September 30, 2016 at 3:38 pm
sarah2106
Participant
This SCM video explains grammar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km1dpVap6U0&feature=youtu.be
Natural Progression of Language Arts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5IxHO0CnTI&feature=youtu.be
For writing I really like to reference Bravewriter. She has great thoughts about the natural progression of writing and how to encourage our students when it comes to writing. It can be a bit challenging to navigate her web page, a lot of information, but if you start on her Blog she has great thoughts.
September 30, 2016 at 4:12 pm
Rachel White
Participant
Ashley,
You may want to set it aside for a bit and just focus on:
- oral narrations
- copywork
- dictation after the copywork
- reading high quality literature
- poetry
- fables, fairy tales, etc
When he does his copywork, on different days of the week, have him circle the nouns. When he does that consistently well( and can narrate to you WHAT a noun is) on his own, move on to verbs, adjectives, etc. Slowly covering the eight parts of speech. Then subject and predicate. Use the ELTL for YOUR purposes in order to teach him what each grammar concept is, but I think he could probably use a breather otherwise.
He’s still young. In 6 months to one year, his understanding and brain development will be much different and you may go back to that curriculum or find a different one. Diagramming is very important, in my view, but he doesn’t have to do it now.
Also, if you start him on Latin, especially, or even Spanish in the next couple of years, that will also improve his grammar and thinking skills, too.
The most important thing right now is that he begin to love literature and enjoy the sound of language, and the importance of using it well, IMO.
HTH
September 30, 2016 at 5:43 pm
Ashley
Participant
Sarah2106 – Thank you so much for taking the time to give me advice and help. I truly, truly appreciate your time.
I watched both of those videos — made so much sense. I guess I’m afraid to use Using Language Well because it isn’t taught like traditional grammar. In the one video when Sonya was explaining how Charlotte taught grammar, Sonya said that she could feel “bad vibes” coming from the audience because Charlotte’s way is so unlike the traditional school way of teaching grammar.
Does the Using Language Well curriculum actually go over grammar rules and definitions? It’s hard to tell from the sample pages. Does it cover things such as sentence subjects, predicates, and objects? My son is already dealing with things in grammar along these lines in the curriculum we are currently using (ELTL).
So my son is learning about sentence subjects, predicates, direct and indirect objects and about diagramming a sentence — which is all good and needs to be learned — but he will frequently forget what a pronoun is or what an adjective is. After some couching (and frustration on my end), he will remember and blurt out the definition. I firmly believe that just because I child can recite a definition, does not mean they actually understand or even know what they are talking about. I can recite a few french phrases that I memorized back in high school, but I can’t for the life of me tell you what they mean.
I want to give my children curriculum that will fill them and equip them with the knowledge they will need for when the get to higher levels.
I know that there is no perfect curriculum. And that every family and child is different. I’m just having a difficult time finding a grammar curriculum that works best for us. I have seen many good looking grammar curriculum out there, but unfortunately I have a budget that I need to live within. I don’t believe that the best curriculum is necessarily the most expensive one.
Were you nervous switching to ULW? Do your children seem to grasp and most importantly retain the lessons?
I am on board with the Charlotte Mason way of teaching. It makes so much sense to me and feels so natural. And truthfully I wish that was how I had been taught when I was in school. Maybe I am just so used to the traditionally way of how “school” should look and be taught. I don’t want my children to fall short in any area of education.
I know it will probably come down to my having to take the full leap of faith into the Charlotte Mason way of teaching. Again, I am so new to all of this — to Charlotte Mason and homeschooling in general — I’m still trying to grasp everything and get my bearings
I am so thankful for advice and support from other homeschooling mamas. Means a lot to me. Thanks girls!