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Genesis 1 Adam and Eve vs the Dinosaurs.
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We loved Expelled! I love Ben Stein’s demeanor. “Excuse me? Whatever it was?” We watched that part like 3 times.
I am loving this discussion!!! I love all the advice on how to introduce children to it. And how to research it all out. Its sooooo cool!
HI Kelsy (correct name?),
I don’t think it’s everyone omitting the vowel; just me, Rachel. Rene had a quote of mine that I think she copied and pasted.
We are a Messianic Jewish family and in accordance with Jewish Tradition, I omit the vowel in the English form so as not to write it in full on anything, especially that may be discarded. Even in a computer situation where technically it may not be discarded, the principle remains. It is a way to show reverence for The Name (Ha Shem)above all names; it is His Holy Name, even if it’s in the English form. It shouldn’t be flippantly used or “in vain”, as His commandment tells us.
Hope that answers your question,
Rachel
I’m going to make some bold statements and contradict some of you. I know that confident boldness can sometimes sound arrogant or harsh, especially in writing where we can’t converse face to face. So please know that I post this in a kind and loving spirit. 🙂
Most of the Bible can be understood with a plain reading of the text in context. The book of Genesis is no different. There really is nothing there to suggest anything other than a creation in six literal 24-hour days, back-to-back, no gaps (good article on the gap theory), no gazillions of years.
It is only to align with man’s flawed external ideas that some try to contort the text to say things it doesn’t. It takes an agenda of some kind to look beyond the plain reading of Genesis 1. There is no reason to do so otherwise.
Treat Genesis with the same rules you would use to interpret any literature or other parts of the Bible. The plain reading is always the first choice.
We all approach any subject starting with our own presuppositions. For some, that’s an evolutionary framework. Others, me included, believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. If there is any conflict between what the Bible says and other ideas, I’ll side with the Bible every time.
For example, someone mentioned what Charlotte Mason believed. She had some wonderful educational ideas that benefit us all. But if her ideas conflict with the Bible (not implying they do or don’t), then I firmly place my faith in God, not Charlotte. She was only human like the rest of us.
We can start with believing the Bible is true, then interpret what we see around us in that light. When done in that way there is no conflict between the Bible and scientific evidence. Everything falls into place rather nicely and we don’t have to mess with the text.
Notice that I made a distinction between scientific evidence and it’s interpretation.
There’s a great example in the questions that started this thread regarding when man and dinosaurs lived. There are Native American rock pictographs depicting creatures that look like dinosaurs. The evolutionist looks at that evidence and says that those must not be dinosaurs because we know they lived millions of years ago and wouldn’t have been known in the time period of the artist. Yet the evidence of those drawings present no problem for the Biblicist.
The same is true when we find a modern item fossilized, of which there are many examples.
There were several earlier comments about not being able to know for sure. In particular, there was one comment that we might not know until we get to heaven. But if we trust God and His Word then we can know for sure. If we don’t take what God said in Genesis 1 at face value, then how can we even trust the other parts of the Bible that tell us about heaven?
The foundations for the major doctrines of the Bible are established in the book of Genesis. Although it might sound nice to say that maybe God created but through evolution, there are just too many conflicts. When you try to fit an evolutionary framework into Genesis it compromises the order of things and those doctrines. It just can’t be done successfully because it destroys the basis of one or the other. You have to choose what you believe.
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
I really want to always keep the big picture before me. As a parent I want to give my children a biblical worldview in which to file all of the things that will be thrown at them in this world. It seems that in order to do that I must take God’s word at face value and believe what it says. I also must not add to or take away from the word of God. My sister n law and I were just having this same conversation 2 days ago. I don’t believe that God is the least bit surprised that people debate this topic . We may think that it would have just been easier for God to lay it all out in the Bible to appease our curious minds. I strongly believe that education and understanding are very important but it can not rise above the simplicity of faith. If He tells us that the world was created in 6 days and He tells us not to add to or diminish His word then it would require ONLY faith to believe it to be true.
Well put!!!
I love that there were a few posts back, someone’s child asking about the fact that if Adam and Eve were the first sinners and prior to that there was no sin or death, how could anything including dinos have passed before them? That is so right on and probably so simply put that many never looked at it in that way.
First off- Thanks, Rachel and Rene for the Gap theory/alternate explanation links. I am always glad to find more info on that construct! Rene, I’d love to compare notes on this. I, too, was helped greatly when I first began to HS by the ‘kjv.bible.org’ website.
Second, Laurie and the other ladies who exhibited restraint in an often volatile area, thank you..
Having said that, I need to put in my two cents: Doug, what you say just isn’t so.
There is not just ‘one’ theory of origins, there are many- Not because God is not True, [John 17:17!] BUT because the ‘theories of origins’ are not God’s, but man’s THEORIES. That being said, I am not an ‘evolutionist.’ Hardly.
The PCA (a large conservative Presbyterian body) allows for different approaches- you can read this report of theirs, here:
http://www.pcahistory.org/creation/report.html
Indeed, this POV is not new, but old.
“It is certainly not necessary to think that the six days spoken of in that first chapter of the Bible are intended to be six days of twenty four hours each. We may think of them rather as very long periods of time.” ~ J. Gresham Machen
(Theologian, founder of Westminster Theological Seminary – and CLEARLY not a ‘modernist’ – he was kicked out of the Presbyterian Church of his day, for being too ‘fundamentalist’ – cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist-Modernist_Controversy )
“The simple fact is that day in Hebrew (just as in English) is used in three separate senses: to mean (1) twenty-four hours, (2) the period of light during the twenty-four hours, and (3) an indeterminate period of time. Therefore, we must leave open the exact length of time indicated by day in Genesis.” ~ Francis Schaeffer
Having quoted these things as preamble, Doug – Such blanket statements as this
‘There really is nothing there to suggest anything other than a creation in six literal 24-hour days, back-to-back, no gaps (good article on the gap theory), no gazillions of years.’
are untenable, (unless you are looking at only the last 50 years, that is- or only consider Ken Ham and the ICR/AIG to be the a sort of 7/24 latter-day ‘pontifical’ source from which you garner your views; which is either a very un-protestant POV, (since when did one group of ‘self-proclaimed experts’ determine ‘faith and morals’ on a non-religious POV, other than the Pope!?) or a rather myopic view of Life; taking all truth from only a very short span of time, within the full history of God’s revelation and His Church.
Ken Ham’s own personal animus against ANYONE that disagrees with him is well-known; possibly because, (if he were being honest) he would allow/note that many, many scientists throughout history have been Old-Earth Creationists (OEC’s). Here’s just one page to corroborate that fact: http://www.geocities.com/vr_junkie/NotableOldEarthCreatinists.htm
Sorry to be so adamant about this, Doug, but I am trying to teach my children TRUTH – and that is one of the reasons I am SOO GLAD to have found this website- not only am I really a CM fan, but that the first time on here, I find THIS discussion (WOW), and learn something “I” didn’t know- (WOWOW) this is TRULY exciting!
And I really get tanked when someone says ‘This POV only is true- the rest are heretics.’ As a former RC, and now a traditionalist Anglican/Orthodox clergyman, I have learned as I get older to be less vocal about what I ‘really know,’ (there’s always someone wiser than I) and to not have as combative a spirit as I once did, (which may seem odd, ladies, as this is my first post on this forum… so imagine how I USED to be! LOL) especially when calling someone a ‘heretic;’ when godly men and women have held that ‘other’ POV long before I was born, and were not ‘excommunicated’ by their version of the Pontifical Commission… or the Sanhedrin.
So, when I hear someone saying,
‘But if her [Miss Mason’s] ideas conflict with the Bible (not implying they do or don’t), then I firmly place my faith in God, not Charlotte. She was only human like the rest of us…’
YOU ARE implying that very thing! Let’s be honest, shall we, and no dissembling. This is setting up straw men to knock down, that aren’t part of the area being discussed. Charlotte (God bless her…literally!) was an Anglican, and an English[wo]man, both of whom tried to stem the tide of evil in their days, (Darwin and Huxley) at the height of the greatest Evangelical Protestant establishment known to man- the C of E. What makes we ‘post-moderns’ (who foolishly listen to men who say, ‘You don’t polish brass on a sinking ship’ ) think we can do, in less than fifty years, what they worked for over 1800 to do!
Having said that, (and I am sure to be bounced for it, on this, my first post) I am not ‘against’ those who are ICR7/24 types; I have used ‘Creationist’ materials with my two kids, whom I homeschool. (‘Considering God’s Creation’ is just lovely) I just ordered (in fact) 3 volumes from the “God’s Design for Life” series by the local ‘bookpeddler,’ to complement, and to give some area of philosophical foundation on which my children can look at future science courses ( and, also cuz they were on sale!!). But I will not teach them as ‘Gospel Truth’ that which is not, or is not the ONLY way to look at it.
But I also want to make clear to my children (and to my parishioners) that, while it (ICR, 7/24) may be a ‘safe’ view in light of atheist evolutionary thought, it may not also, thereby, be the most ‘scientific’ POV. Better to note that Evolutionists are ultimately RELIGIOUS in their false faith, (then one is on an equal playing field) rather than try and assume they are ‘scientific,’ and we religiously-minded people, who trust in the God of All Creation, (precisely because we are humble enough to say that God is God, and we are not… unlike the evolutionists!) are not being ‘scientific’ thereby. That, I think, is the greatest error we can make; for, in doing so, we give the Evolutionists credence where they ultimately have none. [Ps. 14:1] But to battle with them, (thinking ourselves wise…) when we deny all forms of scientific measuring (archeology, carbon-dating, fossil evidence, etc.) makes us look fools- and not the kind God approves of!
Even Stein’s ‘Expelled’ was arguing for ID, not ‘7/24ism.’ We need a less insular vision, not a less faithful one. And to confuse the two, is a fearful thing to do…
I don’t know what I believe in this area. I do however believe that when man sinned, not only was mortality introduced to the world but also the ground was cursed as it says in Genesis. So I do truly believe that in accordance with God’s word it would have been impossible for anything to have lived an died prior to the sin of man. So that would also mean Dinosaurs must have walked the planet with man. On all other details, I don’t know what I believe. But I’m just thankful that I don’t have to have that figured out before I die! Thats the beauty of it all. I know that all the questioning in my mind will come to and end when I reach heaven.
But there are sooooooooo many differing theories out there. So How and what to teach my kids? and when? Sheesh. Its exhausting!
It was against my better judgment that I posted my belief about the gap in this thread – I sought to be helpful in presenting the information to Kelsy to give her something else to look into but I fear I have created more confusion and frustration and for that I am sorry.
I feel badly because this board has such a gentle, helpful spirit about it and I’m afraid I have contributed to a sense of “debate” and that was not my intention.
I just want to be clear in saying that:
I do believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God.
I do NOT believe in evolution in any form.
I believe the six days in Genesis chapter one are literal 24 hour days. Fr John is right that in the bible “day” can mean more than 24 hours, but I believe it’s 24 hours in Genesis 1 based on God saying “evening and morning”.
My belief in the gap has nothing to do with following man or holding a man-made doctrine above the bible, but actually in taking the bible very literally.
There are questions raised that a gap has the answers for. For instance:
Why is Heaven singular in Genesis 1:1 and plural in Genesis 1:2.
What does “the *generations* of the heavens and of the earth” mean?
Why does each day start with “And God said…” and end with “And the evening and the morning were the xxx day” except the first day?
Why do we have two words used: create and made?
Why do we find the bible saying God did not create the earth in the state of confusion and waste that we find in Genesis 1:2?
And most importantly, when were the angels created? Where was Satan when he sinned? Who was the original sinner – Satan or Adam?
I’m not asking anyone to answer these questions, I don’t want to go back and forth and try to convince anyone in this area.
I believe, based on Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, that Satan had God-given dominion on earth, in Eden, the garden of God, a long time ago – I do not claim to know how long. I don’t believe in a gap because I want to make the bible fit into a million or billion year frame – it could have been 50 years before the six days – I have no idea. Satan’s sin caused God to destroy “the world that then was” – and redo it during the six days, giving man dominion – but man didn’t keep his dominion, he quickly gave it over to Satan. And Satan wanted it back.
It’s okay, Rene. Exchange of info is part of this forum and we as homeschoolers have to come face to face with these ideas; we take these topics seriously because we care so deeply. Becasue we care and have deep seated opinions and convictions about our lifestyles and ways of teaching and what to teach, sometimes there will be a ‘gentleman’s disagreement’, but because we are all adults here, we can handle having a disagreement without being disagreeable. In my opinion, for this forum to really help people and for us to touch each other and make a difference in each others lives, there has to be challenges made to us in the ideas or materials presented or advice given sometimes.
A couple of your questions I am at peace about. I believe Angels were made prior to the first day. I think the heavens mentioned here is not the supernatural dwelling place of G-d or the angels or even where Satan fell; just the heavens meaning expanse of sky. I’m in the process of doing a study on the Hebrew word for heaven “shemayim” . Moses used it several different ways in the Torah, depending on the context. Actually I think it’s important to explore the Jewish Sages views of Genesis and their understanding of Hebrew words and nuances, not just traditional Christian commentaries. I think they have more to offer than some people think. All that wealth of ancient knowledge about Genesis going further back than before the rise of Christian apologetics. There is a difference between a Hebraic mindset and a Greek mindset. Of course, all to be subject to the authority of Scripture.
Next, I believe Satan had already been cast out of the supernatural heaven and his place as the beautiful angel onto earth; not hell. I agree with you, he has G-d given dominion now and at that time.
I suppose you could say that Satan was the first sinner, but since he was an angel and not human, he can’t be redeemed by the blood; so to me it’s a mute point.
to Kelsey:when to teach your children? Everytime you see an animal a beautiful palnt, a mountain or discuss the workings of our bodies, you have the opportunity to teach about G-d (plural)the Creator and His awesomeness and power with what he’s done. Keep studying and praying and don’t worry.
How to teach? With experiments and observing the Creation through CM methods!
Teaching them the opposite of what thegov’t school did, that your children were CREATED on purpose, not as an accident. I could go on and on, but I have to go. I hope you get the point. If not, you can post another question.
My prayer is that all of our sincere contributions to this very complicated question will be used to G-d’s Glory in our families. The fact that the topic was brought up, whether people choose to consider other theories or not, has been an opportunity to talk about Him; anytime we bring up the Word to discuss, without contention and pride, G-d is there.
Our Saviour was part of a great Rabbinical tradition of challenging Scriptural interpretation; He was just always correct! 😀
A little challenge to our beliefs should only strengthen us by turning us to The L-rd.
Shalom everybody!
Rachel 🙂
Rachel, I agree that a little challenge to our beliefs is good and healthy. We live in a society that won’t discuss religion and politics because they want to just be ok with what they believe and not step on anyone’s toes. I completely feel that this forum is a safe place to discuss hard topics. It is really hard for our core beliefs to be challenged by anyone but it is healthy. I learned a while ago (but often have to remind myself) that we must major on the majors and minor on the minors. I think there are VERY FEW majors when it comes to our Christian faith. There are very few things that I will stand firm on and not even consider moving. The other things are not COMPLETELY clear in the Scriptures and are somewhat left open for discussion. I think that it is very important to teach our children the various ideas of creation (or the other minor things). Yes we need to say – this is what I believe and why but to not help them understand others views is an injustice. They will not always be under our protection and care and one day they will stand to answer these questions on their own and they need to know and understand opposing sides in order to competently explain their stance. We are to “always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;” 1Peter 3:15 I think that this forum has remained under this instruction (with gentleness and reverence). I don’t think we should avoid these topics because they have spurred all of us on to figure out what we believe and why. Some feel strongly about our stance and others are still searching but the truth is we all moved forward as a result of this post. That may mean more confidence in what we believe or more knowledge of our options. I think we are doing ourselves (as both Christians and educators) an injustice by avoiding such discussions. Thank you all for being brave enough to talk about it. It has defiantly spurred me on.
Amy
I have never had my ideals challenged in this way at all so I welcome it. Like I said, we can all have our own beliefs and theories on the topic and when we die, we will know the truth. So we don’t have to worry about it so much. I intend to teach my child as many theories as possible though it seems a very daunting task.
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