I had planned on beginning written narrations with my 14 year old who has always struggled with writing and spelling. (likely due to dysgraphia +/- dyslexia). We used Barton for ahile, but he and I both burned out on it. I have read and been motivated by many threads here (esp. the one with Bookworm’s insights about no writing programs!) He has only done a couple very short written narrations so far; they were not easy for him at all. I came across some notes by a Dianne Craft somewhere that recommended her special “remedial writing without curriculum” program. It mentions using “webbing” etc. to help develop the skills needed to write paragraphs etc. My question is, have any here had their “strugglers” overcome their obstacles by patience and guidance through the CM written narration methods alone? Are these “remedial writing” programs any better for these kids? I just want him to enjoy, not hate writing/keyboarding. We are currently using Spelling Wisdom and Easy Grammar for LA, but I had hopes for transitioning over to written narrations alone to serve as his LA (getting sour on grammar as well). Marie
We are using narration and Dianne Craft’s methods.
I will tell you what I am doing with ds12. Please note we are new to CM (almost a year) and have used Dianne’s writing recommendations for only about 8 weeks. My son has been diagnosed with APD, with an Integration Deficit, ADHD-Inattenive, SPD-Auditory Discrimination, and a Visual Discrimination Deficit in Achievement Testing(not diagnosed yet -we stopped all the testing when I withdrew him for ps). He is anti-writing, anti-math, and anti-“pointless” reading.
My son has struggled with writing since the beginning. He has wonderful ideas, can talk forever telling every minute detail of something he has watched or something he has read (and connected with) but he struggles with getting anything on paper.
To begin, we did drawn narrations and then I asked my son to tell me about what he drew. If I asked for the telling first, I would get deer-in-headlights. We have transitioned this school year to my son doing a drawn narration and then writing about what he drew. I will then look at it and ask any questions, so I “can understand the story/person/reading” and then I will write what my son tells me, hopefully modeling what I would like next time. My son does narration this way (drawn, then written, then oral, then I write) for at least one reading per day, usually two. This is usually history, literature, and sometimes science.
Dianne’s recommendation is basically a paper a week. Even if that paper is only a few sentences. You build up from each week’s paper. On day one, you do the webbing on whatever topic you choose, with the parent doing the writing. On the second day, the child, using the webbing, writes the paper. For example, my son’s paper this week was on The White Stag by Kate Seredy. For every part of the book (4 parts) he read, my son did his usual drawn/written and then oral narration. For his actual writing assignment, he was to write a paper about The White Stag. We worked on the webbing, with my writing and my son dictating, and then the next day, using the web he wrote a FOUR-PARAGRAPH PAPER!!! Without my help!!! It is a basic paper. But it is more than the couple of sentences I had been getting. Granted, we have been working up to this for several weeks. But using Dianne’s webbing exercise to assist my son in organizing his thoughts has been key. I think that is the problem for my son, he does not know how to organize his thoughts to write a paper.
Also, Dianne recommends no corrections on the week’s paper. You address any spelling, grammar, usage components for the next paper. So the child’s writing really dictates how you proceed in these areas. As you work on a paper each week, you help the child “sophisticate” their writing, by maybe asking them to include an example from the story, or adding transition words, etc. Or maybe you target the introduction or just the topic sentence. Maybe you address punctuation, or adding a quotation from the story. For us, our primary focus is working on confidence in getting my son’s ideas organized and on paper, with lots and lots of praise for effort.
As far as formal Spelling and Grammar, for spelling – we only work on words misspelled in the week’s paper or words that I know he struggles with, we use Dianne’s visualization methods for those words. For now, I am using Spelling Wisdom for copywork and dictation. For some reason, my son loves copywork. For Grammar, we will only be addressing as needed through my son’s weekly paper, and then he will do Winston Grammar in the third term. I will probably add in Aunt Ruth for usage. My son liked the sample.
We love narration but, for my son, he just struggles so much with the organizational demands of writing. The framework that Dianne recommends is helping him tremendously. To see a developed four-paragraph paper is so amazing! I am not sure if we had homeschooled from the beginning and used CM methods if we would have been able to forgo all the organizational issues. I think my son would definitely be more confident and comfortable writing. But the reality is, my son has no idea WHAT to write. He cannot see how to get his thoughts on paper. He needs the framework.
This sound s great! I just want to clarify, do you mean you have him dictate his drwing and you write for him? Or, did you mean he will attempt to write on own, but have you rewrite after he dictates? Did you find the guidelines for her webbing / writing in a book? this sounds like exactly what we need; he will as you say, tell me everything, just hates to write. He cannot form some letters well, and they are a mix of capital and lowercase seemingly random. I go over these again and again, but it never sticks.
Usually, I have him draw and write himself first. And then, he will tell me about whatever he drew and what it represents (if something more abstract) or about the scene/character. Then, if there is more information from that chapter or reading that he leaves out, I will question him “how did Justinian get to Bulgaria? What did he do that was so important for later laws in Europe?” etc. I then write that information as he tells me and add it to his written narration, and then orally narrate (read it) again. This is sometimes very frustrating for him. My son is very sensitive to corrections, he says it makes him feel like he is dumb (no matter how gently I tread). If he gets defensive, I will read aloud what we came up with and ask him if “I” missed anything. If he is receptive, then he will read aloud what “he” knows about the person/chapter/scene etc. My hope is that he will gradually be able to make a more complete written narration, without my prompting. I also have been told to model it until your child practically rips the pencil from your hand to do it themselves. =)
The actual webbing template and ideas on transitions are in the Teaching the Right Brain Child DVD, which comes with a small booklet, which contains the webbing. Really the webbing template itself is probably available free online, along with her suggested lesson plans for struggling writers. The DVD goes through how to teach and the booklet shows and gives examples on ways to work on writing with non-writers, beginning writers, and more accomplished writers. This to my understanding is the explanation to her “Writing without a Curriculum” plan.
My son, too, still reverses and uses upper/lower at random. He also cannot tell the difference between sounds so that may contribute to the reversals. For example, for Clovis the Frank this week, my son kept writing Colvis. He does not hear a difference in the sound of “Cl” versus “Col”, which is part of his auditory problems. We are working through Dianne’s Brain Integration Therapy for those things.
Just as a note on scheduling, we do narrations daily, and then do the writing web on Wednesday and then write the paper on Thursday. For books that I have not pre-read (right now just one for Literature that I am behind on reading), he does the drawn/written/oral, but I do not necessarily do the further questioning and writing every day. For history, he works on two narrations: one on the daily lesson together (i.e. today’s Justinian the Great) and then also on his history independent reading (The Vikings). Depending on his science assignment for the day, he also does the full draw/write/oral/discussion-rewrite with mom on days when that applies. My son is much more comfortable with non-fiction so it is less of a chore for his narrations to come from history and science.
Here is the link to the free lesson plan/teaching strategies for struggling writers. Some of the explanations are in her books and DVDs:
Thiank you so much, this is so helpful and I am sure there are others who will benefit from these suggestions! I will talk to my son this weekend and see if he would feel more comfortable with this approach. He loves to draw, but hates to write words! His spelling is so below grade level. When we pulled him from private school we were horrified. His grades never gave us a warning as to how far behind he was. He spells anything with the “th”sound with “f”; or, he spells like a word sounds (“pepole”, cept-for kept, littel, erinns-for errands, ther-for their etc) are just a few of the countless words he cannot spell. I make cards, about 10 per week, and color/jazz up the letters he gets wrong (read that somewhere also). I will give this a try next week, and thank you again!
Thanks also Stephanie for the explanation. I got the emailed version of the writing technique but had no idea how the webbing is supposed to look. I think I will invest is another one of the dvds.
I do want to say that since we started the Brain Integration Therapy about 7 weeks ago with the writing 8 exercise, I can tell a difference in my sons handwriting. We started out barely legible, no spacing, upper and lowercase combo and nothing going below the line(as in y,g,p,etc.) but his copywork is improving(not great but better). He had trouble writing some numbers also and that is improving also so I am hoping with a year of the therapy we will see huge improvements.
Oe last question, apsnews. My son is 14, and when I once attempted to have him simply “practice” writing the alphabet, he felt completely demoralized! He gets so mad at himself and seems to think “this is as good as it gets”. Does she hae a tactful tip on how to use this “writing 8” with older kids without causing further selfesteem damage? And if I read correctly, the “writing 8” is basically just writing the letters daily for 15 min. correct? (I wasn’t sure what the “8” means)? I am sorry to bother, i will get the book/dvd for sure. I am only seeing bit and pieces online. I will purchase the kit ASAP. It sounds like we need this.
I’m not apsews, but I found the writing 8s on her site and the hslda site. There are also demos on youtube. Take a large (12×18) size construction or drawing paper (Staples has them; I know. I’m one county from you and saw them there myself) and draw an eight that covers most of the paper. You may need to use a plate or something to keep it round. Draw a straight line where the circles meet. He will use his writing hand for circles and letters and his non-writing hand to hold the paper. That’s important, but I can’t get my 9yo to understand that. He will make three smooth, medium speed turns around the track, then make a letter. The letters must cover the circle. There is a chart to follow on her website. After each letter, three more 8s.
I don’t know about tips for older kids on her site, but homeschool-your-boys is using it with an older child. And I’ve seen something on youtube about a class of 8th graders doing it.
I’m only using the bits and pieces myself. Hope it works. We don’t have a lot of money to invest in the DVD/Brain Integration manual right now. Might use Christmas money on it if I haven’t seen improvement by then.
I think the most frustrating part for me is the trial and error. I want to KNOW what to do NOW. That is just not possible. We have to individualize everything, which is the beautiful part of homeschooling. I had a talk with my son and we discussed that we are going to have to figure this out together. We have tried to make it a team effort.
I am not sure if I put this on the board reply, but when we first started doing drawn narrations, I had him do the drawing and then tell me about the “drawing”, asking questions so I understood what was happening. Then after several weeks, I had him add key words or bullet points (which he loved) to the drawing. He still loves to use bullet points, which are really easy to model turning into a full sentence. Then when asking questions, I would add those items in complete sentences to his page, checking the whole time to make sure “I” got everything correct. Nothing produces such glee in my son than checking to make sure I got things correct. I will sometimes even make a “mistake” so he can correct me (not in grammar or spelling, just content). He is now doing sentences on his drawn narration, though I am still getting only basic ones. He would much rather tell me about the selection than write it. Still the same process though, I will add to it after he expends the first effort of drawing, writing, telling, answering. It is a struggle sometimes with attitude of “feeling so dumb” and the only way I have found to combat that it is to deflect as much possible to myself.
As far as the Writing 8’s, this is what I have stressed to my son. The concept was originally created and used for athletes. It was created and used to improve hand-eye coordination and the ability to perceptualize the field/court of play/players. Not at the little league level, at high school, college and professional level. Writing 8’s is actually a rehabilitation therapy so it is going to be boring and maybe a little (or a lot) challenging. It basically rewrites the visual/motor/spatial areas that cause dysgraphia and other writing stresses. For my son, who has a more severe integration problem, at first I allowed him to work only through a portion of the alphabet per day, so A-L on day one, M-Z on day two. My son, at first, was exhausted with this exercise, which shows me how much it was needed. However, as we went into week two we moved to doing the whole alphabet. I, too, can see an improvement in ds’s handwriting.
The size of the paper and placements are key to cross the midline of the body/brain connection so that the brain integrates. You want the child to stay within an inch of the circle lines. If they cannot stay within an inch, they are going too fast. It is also recommended that you use thick, chunky crayons for the drag that those make on the paper, as opposed to the more smooth pencil/pen. It takes about 8 weeks or so to start seeing gains and to see best results about a year or so. Also if you order the Brain Integration Manual, you should receive a template for the Writing 8’s exercises. We have just had this copied at Staples. I also think Dianne did have these available separately but I do not see them on her website. You may have to e-mail her for them.
I will say, that though sports related gains are so not what we were looking for, my son can throw and catch a ball well now, with just 8 weeks of home therapy. He is playing football with his teenage uncles and their friends, willingly, because he is able to actually catch a ball and hit a target. Whereas, a couple of months ago, that was out of the question. I hope he will be more willing to participate in other physical activities as we proceed through this program.
You can see samples of the DVDs on Dianne’s YouTube channel there. I am not sure if she demonstrates the Writing 8’s there.
You may want to look at adding a computerized program, if your child likes working on the computer. For older children especially, computer “games” seem to be more acceptable. I will tell you of some of the ones that have been recommended to me by either Audiologist, Speech or OT.
First is Earobics. It was created to be used in a clinical setting and, although, they created a home version, it seems like just about every company that was selling it the past few years have stopped. I include the link from the actual company and the only place I have found to have the Adolescent/Adult version new. This program has been extensively field tested and is the number one program recommended by our audiology group. Practically all (I think like 97%) students, both learning challenged and those not challenged, have shown significant improvement in literacy skills within a relatively short period of time. The most remarkable study I saw was out of the Chicago PS. There is research and results listed on their webpage. My son’s Audiologist says that consistency is a requirement for using this program. Like, five days per week for eight weeks, no breaks or do not even bother beginning. I have not been able to fit that in yet and now that we are committed to Brain Integration Therapy, I am probably going to wait to add some type of computer program after Christmas Break. I have heard that the graphics are very juvenile, even in the Adolescent/Adult program and that it starts with very basic words. I am waffling between this one and HearBuilder.
Another program that is comparable is HearBuilder. These are different programs that we are looking at: Phonological Awareness and Auditory Memory, which are big areas of weakness that we are seeing in the spelling of words. There are other skill focus areas available. There may be other places that have this software, this is just the company that I was referred to:
Last, I plan on ordering this one soon, BrainWare Safari. I have been told that children with poor working memory and digit span show significant progress using this program for a little as nine months. If having trouble with math facts especially, which is my son. I like the research behind this one, but I do not know anyone personally who has used it. Homeschool Buyers Co-op did have a discount on the software.
Well you got your answer already,lol but I wanted to add that I read on her website that there is videos of 8th graders doing the writing 8 on the “Smart Kids Who Hate To Write”
I think I have read her site from end to end, lol.
My son hated doing them in the beginning but has gotten used to it and now doesn’t complain so bad. He has started using his ipod to video himself doing it and he likes to watch it later,lol. I have started doing the BIT exercise with him because he tends to go too fast. She recommends holding their hand while they do it but that just doesn’t fly with a 12yo boy,lol. We actually have fun doing it now.
I buy the poster boards in the size for the 8 and just use the instructions in “Visits to Africa” book to trace it onto the board. I get them at Dollar General for like $.34 and I use the front and the back(about a week each side).
Wow!! Just checked in after busy day. So many great suggestions and helpful links. I can’t thank you all enough for taking the time to help us. We wasted so many years (and tuition it seems) for his education in private school. No concerns; he was passed along with flying colors. When he came home three years ago, we could hardly believe how behind we were in so many areas. It’s scary to think we only have 4 years left; maybe we can get cought up. God bless!
I can totally relate to that because I took my ds out of PS in April and he had always made A’s and B’s up until last year. He was failing every subject except language arts(reading was separate) and I found out why.
I asked my sister in law, who is an elementary counselor, how in the world had he gotten to 5th grade. She said that the teachers would “help” them so they would pass and leave it to someone else to try to fix the problems or they thought he would hopefully catch on at some point. That is really sad to me because I am sure there are many kids that struggle everyday and feel dumb because no one wants to help them, just push them on through.