written narration with older children

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  • bankszz
    Member

    Thanks you so much for your site. It has helped me SO much. I have a 12 year old boy in addition to 5 others. He is very bright…loves History and is overall a good student. He can be a little lazy. Here is my main question. If I ask him to oral narrate he can talk for 20 minutes about whatever it is. If ask him to write anything, it is the bare minumum and lifeless. Should I expect that he can do the written narration and push him in that direction or are we to early? My main concern is that if it will come with time..I’ll wait. If it is a work ethic issue and he should be ready then I want to work toward that goal.

    Thanks

    Shanna
    Participant

    Are you giving him a starter for writing? Something like tell me about how so and so handle such and such situation. Or tell me about how such and such situation changed so and so. I know real descriptive help, huh? LOL!!! But, maybe that will give you an idea of what I am talking about.

    Telling a child to just write about what they have read can be a very difficult task especially for beginners. But, if you give them a starting point it can be so much easier.

    bankszz
    Member

    well I usually outline what I’m looking for like…Abe Lincoln. Tell me the main facts about his life, what he did that impacted history, when he died and how if there is a story.

    Here is what I get…

    Abe Lincln was born……he started the civil war and was shot at Ford’s Theatre while watching a play on……..

    I tied IEW a couple of years ao…maybe I was too early but it was like pulling teeth.

    Shanna
    Participant

    I think your starter is way too broad for a 12 yr old boy. JMHO. I would narrow much more. Are you asking for a written narration after the book is done, after a reading, or the end of the week?

    bankszz
    Member

    I give him a topic that goes along with a book. Like right now he is reading a book that is set during the civil war. I have asked him to read up on Abe Lincoln, the Battle of Gettesburg and Orthodox Jewish beliefs. These are all topics that are present in the book as a backdrop. I give him some thin books on each topic and ask him to complile info and write a summary.

    He was having so much trouble on the Gettesburg one that I told him to write it like a letter back home describing what he saw as a soldier. Great letter but no actual facts about what was going on in Gettesburg. My ultimate goal is at he knows something about the material which I do feel good about. Writing well is a real advantage and he struggles with it so much. I do not really know when I need to step it up and how.

    Bookworm
    Participant

    I think you are asking for a lot of synthesis for a beginning writer, especially a boy. He is probably overwhelmed at the amount of steps he needs to do all at once. I would recommend breaking things down into much smaller steps.

    I would have him write something over a one day reading. Read this chapter, and just “tell” me what happened in this chapter. It won’t be great at first, and it takes a long, long, long time before written narrations in my home even began to approach the length of oral ones. In fact, I am not sure anyone has quite gotten THERE yet! LOL

    Especially if you are asking him to remember material from one or more books over quite a period of time and then write on a topic like Orthodox Jewish beliefs, I can see why he is struggling. You really need to begin with what you want him to do, then break it down into much smaller steps, then do each step, one at a time, with feedback from you.

    Without seeing the books you are using or exactly where you are heading, I don’t know where to start. But I often tell my kids that they need to begin first by the small steps. Identify a topic. Decide what you already know about that topic. Decide where you could find more. Then think about different sections you could write–this would correspond to the paragraphs. What information do you have that could go in each paragraph? Then find out what more you need to know. Decide what material is important and what is irrelevant. Look for supporting quotes or ideas. Write a beginning paragraph. We usually write the conclusion next. Then we do a paragraph at a time. Then we put it all together and begin going over it together, proofing and editing. The whole process often takes us weeks.

    My very reluctant writers really responded to the ideas in the book Jump In, as it is broken down in a very helpful way into all the small steps of a writing process. We could do a section in the book once, and then I could just make a list of things to encourage them to do as they write.

    I also don’t really expect much writing like essays at 12. We work on simple written narrations first. Then we choose a narration every so often that could be expanded, and follow the above process with it. Then we might look over our narrations at the end of the book and think of an essay type thing we could do over the whole book. But that would only translate to doing something like this every several weeks or so.

    Don’t worry about his writing reflecting what he KNOWS about the material. That internal narration process is what produces “knowing” about something. How are his oral narrations doing? IF they are fine, then he “knows” He just is struggling to get the “knows” on the paper. A big job. He needs some steps on how to get there–right now he feels like you want him to jump across a chasm! LOL He needs plans to build a bridge first.

    Michelle D, mom of one boy who can now write a passable essay, one boy who is stuck in the middle of written narrations, and one who can write his name. 🙂

    bankszz
    Member

    Thank you so much for taking the time to respond so completly. I’ll check out the book you mentioned. He is my oldest so I haven’t been in these waters before and want to be steering the right direction. He would write you a thank you note for taking some pressure off him, I’m sure.

    You have helped me decide where I need to go next instead of just trying the same thing and wondering why weren’t moving forward.

    I have kids that are doing written narrations and they are 13, 12, and 10. The 12 yr old is a boy. 😉

    First of all you are not being too broad, however, you really need to remove yourself from between the book and your child. You do not need to do an outline from which he is to write, I really don’t understand your purpose in that?

    A twelve year old is *just* beginning the process of putting all of his thoughts from his reading, into a logical order, and on to paper to boot! It really is a skill that will improve over time, I promise! It can realistically take a good 2 years of practice before written narrations are going to be ‘great’ for most kids. Honest. Now some are quicker, yes, but that is not the norm/average.

    He should be doing written narration twice weekly, do not correct his written narrations either…not until later when he is more proficient.

    Have him read less than 1 chapter, say just an ‘episode’ or ‘event’ from a book (literature, or history, etc) and simply tell him to WRITE what he just read about. And leave him be…

    1 thing that *might* help: have him do an oral narration to you, while YOU type it. Then have him read his narration out loud, that may also help him to see that he CAN open up on paper. If he hates to write (and he should write, don’t get me wrong) teach him to type well, and allow him to type some of them.

    My .02

    From Vol 6, pg 192

    ” But let me again say there must be no attempt to teach composition. Our failure as teachers is that we place too little dependence on the intellectual power of our scholars, and as they are modest little souls what the teacher kindly volunteers to do for them, they feel that they cannot do for themselves. But give them a fair field and no favour and they will describe their favourite scene from the play they have read, and much besides. “

    Your son is oral narrating well because you are staying out from between the reading and him. But when he is told to do a written narration, you are basically telling him WHAT to write by doing your outlines. Do not narrow him that way! 😉

    From pg. 193

    ” Forms V and VI. In these Forms some definite teaching in the art of composition is advisable, but not too much, lest the young scholars be saddled with a stilted style which may encumber them for life. “

    Again, composition (written narration) is not TAUGHT until much older, and even then we don’t teach *too* much, or tell them what to write. If we are outlining what they are to write from we are killing the habit of attention (they won’t have to pay attention cause mom is giving details in her outline) it also narrows their thinking process to just what is in your outline, shutting down their own thought process.

    HTH

    bankszz
    Member

    Thank you al for taking the time to help me with this. I need to read up more on written narration since that looks like what I need to do more of than summerize information.

    Blessings

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