Science, Apologia, Dislikes – Why Specifically do you not like it?

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 23 total)
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  • Claire
    Participant

    I have been re-reading the pages and pages of posts on high school Science on SCM recently and have a question.  WHY specifically do you all not like Apologia Science courses?  I haven’t ever seen one.  I’m not sure how I could see a chapter, but I wondered if anyone could just tell me more specifically what the issues were?  Was it dramatically more structured than previous experience with Science for your child?  Was it more demanding than what they’d previously been asked to do?  Or was it pace? layout? what?


    @Bookworm
    , as the proponent in some posts for strong Science curriculum, did you consider the Apologia courses and labs sufficient?  Is there anything else out there you’d consider worthy for college bound students?

     

    Tristan
    Participant

    Claire – you can see an entire chapter of each book through the Apologia website.

    We use Apologia and the only thing Makayla didn’t like was that it is much more rigor than she was used to in elementary.  It was WORK!  However, we just took a bit longer for General Science in the beginning as she found her feet and by the end of the book she had sped up to the expected speed (1 module over 2 weeks).  It is also not quite as interesting as a story, so if all your child is used to is stories for science they will probably struggle with the switch at first.

    Linabean
    Participant

    Interesting that you brought this up.  We just received our Apologia general science for our dd after MUCH searching, research, comparing, discussion, etc. etc.  I had read a lot of the discussions on high school science from the SCM forum.  We are looking forward to it but I am also (secretly)nervous about it, actually!  Not letting on to dd, though!

    Some of the “problems” that some people mentioned that stuck out to me were  mostly involving it being very “dry”, compared to all the living books they had been used to.  Many people also mentioned that it “sucked the fun” out of a previously enjoyable subject.  Another thought that I came across from another online site (which I was surprised at because it seemed to be saying the OPPOSITE of what was being said in this forum) was that it was NOT rigorous enough for adequately preparing students for university or college.  This was from an online catholic school (I think) and they also mentioned being slightly offended by what seemed to be an attitude that was somewhat biased against the catholic church.  I had not read that ANYWHERE else and I also know that there are people on this site that are catholic and have used Apoligia and I don’t remember seeing ANYTHING like this ever mentioned.  So I didn’t really let that sway me in the final decision.

    I have been going over the course and all it’s components, it’s recommended schedules, ways to use it properly, etc.  Some of the things that I was seeing people complaning about it from other places were saying it seemed disjointed, difficult to retain information, not set up efficiently, etc..  I came to the conclusion that they were possibly not using it in the way it was intended or in the way that was clearly suggested in the notes to parents section as well as the notes to students section.  We will be attempting to use the course and the notebook in as close to the intended way as possible and see if that doesn’t clear up a lot of those issues.

    As far as it being dry, boring, to difficult for non-sciency kids, etc.  we decided to start her in it a half a year earlier than we had originally intented (the original plan was to start and finish in year 8).  She will be starting now, halfway through year 7 and the goal will be to finish in year 8.  This should give her plenty of time to get used to the more difficult work, the set up, the tests, the “boring” first sections (which were the hardest part according to many) and still not feel behind.  She is not a math and science minded person, but we are still going to try our best with this!

    If you would like,  I can let you know how it is going when we are a few weeks in!

     

    my3boys
    Participant

    We have used many Apologia texts and my dc never mention them being dry or boring.  The problems we have had came from not using the text enough and then just losing interest, or, me being too cheap to purchase a notebooking journal (for the elementary texts). My oldest ds used the General text over 7th and 8th grade with living books, labs at home and co-op classes, etc. Now I must confess that this ds is not afraid of textbooks and will pretty much use what I give him, so the text was not a big deal to him.  My next ds will use the same text with living books added (narration, too, of course), a lab class twice a month, and any other science related classes/opportunities we can find. He loves the mixture of all of the above. Plus, we will still be doing Nature Study at home once a week, if possible.

    My oldest has used the Physical and Biology texts with no real problems (but, again, he is able to use whatever I hand him).  I added a bio or two with Biology along with a lab class that met twice a month. He had a state test for Biology this year and felt pretty confident about his knowledge. He was glad to have used the text as close to how it’s set up and the lab class to feel prepared for the test.  I plan to do most of the same with my middle ds knowing what we know now and how I can tweak things here and there. And how to add in living books/bios and narration.

    I know you were looking for reasons as to why some do not care for this text but I thought I’d share our experience.

    Melanie32
    Participant

    Hi Claire! My son hated Apologia. He used General Science, Biology and we finally ditched Chemistry half way through the year. I think he disliked it because he was used to living books and had never used a textbook for anything other than math and grammar. I also think it was laziness. :-\

    That was my son’s experience. Now, here we are years later and I was worried that my daughter would hate Apologia as well. We’ve always used living science books. Last year we used Ambleside Online’s year 6 science and it went fairly well. I was planning on using their year 7 science this year. We started and things were going pretty good. However, I wasn’t able to use all of their science selections so I was trying to decide what to supplement with. I decided to pull out my old Apologia General Science book just to see how she would handle it. Well, lo and behold, we found it EASY compared with the AO science! In fact, both my daughter and myself actually LIKE it. We are enjoying General Science and find ourselves looking forward to it. Boy was I surprised!

    I was just sure my daughter was going to hate  Apologia just like her brother did. I thought that textbooks just weren’t for us. However, Apologia is not your typical textbook. It’s written in a conversational tone by a man who loves God and love science and both come through loud and clear. The text is interesting, straight forward and understandable.

    I think the fact that my daughter has read much harder books at a much younger age than my son ever did, is the thing that made the difference.

     

     

    Claire
    Participant

    Thanks everyone!


    @Linabean
    , I would love an update!  Thanks. 🙂


    @Tristan
    , We’ve used some texts so I don’t think that will strike either of them as difficult/odd/boring.  We’ve never been able to do the living Science books as suggested on SCM but we’ve always done biographies and journals as a part of our Science.  They actually prefer textbook Science or straight up Science.

    I did go to the site and look at a chapter of Physics (since we did that this year) and found it pretty straightforward and the information laid out very similarly to what we had done this year.  The labs were very similar to ours too.  But it was just one chapter.

    I popped around and read several of the sample chapters.  I don’t think this is too rigorous.  But again I’m just reading one chapter.  I was impressed with what I’ve already covered with the kids!  I was thinking maybe I’d been doing “Science Lite” but now I’m think I’m good … that was a nice bonus of my investigations! 😉

    I have reservations when I read statements like: “The author especially concentrates on the myths generated by the hysterical environmentalist movement.”  It strikes me as inflammatory instead of factual.  I wonder if there are other similar statements in other courses?  I’m totally not interested in that type of thing.  For us, I want rigorous Science courses and that’s all.

     

     

    petitemom
    Participant

    I started the General Science book last year and stopped after a short while. All the tests were way too much to study for and to remember. It was a lot of work for my son and myself as I had a hard time to find the answers.

    I am thinking to give it another try next but skip the tests and do a written narration for each lesson instead. The content seems to be very good.

    suzukimom
    Participant

    Petite mom aren’t the solutions in the solution book?

     

    petitemom
    Participant

    I don’t know!?!  Some of them I was having a hard time to find.

    Can someone else answer this?

    Maybe it is just me, I just remember thinking that was way too much work for me and for my son too!

    Tristan
    Participant

    The answers with explanations are in the solutions manual (grey book) for the tests and it was really helpful for me!

    Here is a post from about halfway through General Science that shared how we used it and got through the adjustment phase to a textbook.  We went on to finish the book that summer and did Physical science this year. Next on the docket is Biology.  🙂

    Bookworm
    Participant

    Hi.  Bookworm the science nerd reporting.  I don’t have a ton of time today, but wanted to step in briefly.

    There are more secular science books on the market.  Some have all the needed info in them.  They are usually written by a committee of several people.  They are in my experience uniformly dry, and they are rarely well suited to use in the home.  Sometimes the teacher editions are very expensive or even unavailable, and the labs are not designed for use at home.  In my home, we discuss a broad range of science topics as relating to religion. We’ve read the very simple young earth creationist position; we read evolutionary theory.   The very simple manner of the Apologia books in explaining this topic can grate on my kids at times.  But knowing the proclivities of the majority of homeschool families, I think most would be more comfortable with this type of book instead of the typical secular text.  It appears to me that the new Apologia owners are beginning a revision of the high school texts to include much more creationist perspective.  It seems to me that some of this is forced and unnecessary.  I don’t know what I’ll be recommending in the future.  Dr. Wile is actually trying to put out a better chemistry text as the new Apologia edition has a number of very serious weaknesses.  I do NOT recommend Chemistry 2nd ed.  I would stay with the older version if you can find it, or possibly Dr. Wile’s new version which I have not yet seen.  So far Biology and Physics have not been revised again.

    Claire, we have also not been very troubled by the “environmentalist” perspective in these texts.  We also read a wide range of opinions on this topic, and find ourselves often somewhere in the middle ground between the extreme black and white sides of the debate.  Sigh.  This happens to us a lot.

    College prep science is hard.  I promise you, unless your child goes to a high end liberal arts college with access to courses like “Physics for Poets” (yes, a real course at one school we looked at LOL) that introductory science class in college will be harder.

    For Apologia you do need that gray teacher edition book.  The answers for the study guides and tests are in that.  The answers for the on your own problems are at the end of the chapters in the text.  For biology, there IS a study notebook published by Apologia that I really liked. It might soften the blow for that first class.  They did publish a similar guide for chemistry, but only for the 2nd ed. which we will not be using, and it cannot be used with the first ed.  Also Dr. Wile has expressed to me a concern that students will use it as rather a crutch and since nothing like that will be given them in college, he thinks using these is best kept to a minimum.

    I do think Apologia an adequate preparation for a beginning college class.  I did myself augment the labs, often with Quality Science Labs, especially for chemistry.  But then I love chemistry labs.  🙂  The more the better!  Dr. Wile’s newer book for chemistry has much better and specially designed labs (more than 40!) that he has designed to be inexpensive and easier for homeschool moms.  Caveat: I have not yet seen the text, I am just going on what he has on his blog and his answers to my questions.

    So, in summary.  Apologia should be acceptable to most Christian families, although it can seem simplistic if you are serious about exposing your children to the nitty-gritty details of the issues.  You have to understand that I was preparing my kids for a good likelihood they were going to study science in college (so far they have both jumped ship to the social sciences lol) It is written in a much better style than most secular high school texts.  It has the needed information, an inexpensive teacher manual and labs that can be done at home for reasonable expense.  Most secular books we have looked at have suffered in comparison by not being designed for use in a home by a mom.  Most other Christian texts/programs suffer in comparison by not being rigorous enough and not having the needed information.  College prep science is not a walk in the park.  It will challenge most of our kids at some point.  IMO this is for most kids probably a good thing.  My preference for struggling kids would be instead of going down the scale to a fluffier program, to instead slow down and augment the text.  Do more hands-on, watch videos, teach the child to take notes and how to study vocabulary, whatever it takes.  If it takes you two years to make it through one text, IMO it’s still better than doing an easier program in one year.  Try to give your kids a little idea of just how powerful a window on life on this earth good science can be.  Yes, it’s hard, but it’s so rewarding.  It’s so relevant.  It’s a legacy to us from the God who organized this world, that we can see and begin to understand what He created.

    suzukimom
    Participant

    Bookworm – I thought it was the new 3rd edition of Chemistry to avoid – the 2nd edition is still by Dr. Wile…..

    I wish I could afford to snap up all the Apologia books by Dr. Wile.   I grabbed General Science and Chemistry at a used book sale a month or so ago…. I really wished I could have grabbed the physics that was there too.  Sigh.

    Bookworm
    Participant

    Sorry, you are right, I plead migraine meds this morning.  LOL

    Read here for more info:

    http://blog.drwile.com/?cat=13

     

    Karen Smith
    Moderator

    Yes, it’s the 3rd edition of Apologia’s chemistry to avoid. The 2nd edition is Dr. Wile’s.

    I found the high school Apologia courses to be rigorous enough for college prep. Compared to what I had in high school and the beginning college courses I had for a science degree, Dr. Wile’s Apologia high school courses were as rigorous and, in some cases, more rigorous. Dr. Wile occasionally gets feedback from students majoring in science in college about how his high school courses prepared them well for their college science classes.

    Dr. Wile’s new chemistry book will be just as rigorous. He has rearranged the material a bit, for the better in my opinion. His new book is written even more directly to the student as he is assuming there is not a “sciency” parent to teach it. This means that he explains concepts more thoroughly. There are plenty of example problems to step the student through the problem solving. Also, he will be available by email for questions the student/parent might have regarding any part of the course.

    crazy4boys
    Participant

    My boys are ones that complain that it’s boring and dry. I have found though, that in the 3 books we’ve used (general, physical, and biology), the first chapter or two are the hardest. Once they get past that they’re better. They HATED general, tolerated physical, and have mostly liked biology. I think the hands-on aspect of biology was more appealing.

    One child in particular complains about the author’s ‘agenda’ and hates all the ‘rants about religion’. Having grown up in a very religious home where science and religion are frequently discussed he feels that he doesn’t need it in a text book. It doesn’t necessarily conflict with our beliefs, he just doesn’t want it in his science text. *shrugs shoulders* This same child feels that often a concept is briefly hit upon, but not thoroughly explained. He’s a science thinker and wants a bit more in-depth information than is sometimes offered.

    They also get really frustrated when I don’t follow up with narrations or the On Your Own questions. Sometimes I let a few days go without checking in and make sure they’re understanding and I find out they’re lost or haven’t grasped a concept and by then they’re steaming mad “at the author because it’s a stupid book” when in fact they just need to take a few minutes to understand something that is fuzzy. That’s more a reflection on how we use the book vs. the actual book.

    I’m excited for the new chemistry book though! It seems more like the direction I’d like to see textbooks go.

     

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