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Choosing obedience?
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Question for all you ladies…Do you allow your children to choose whether or not to obey? I’ve come across this idea a number of places and the authors say we must allow our children to choose. Do you believe this? And how do you apply it in your home? My example goes something like this: dd clearly needs a nap and her reaction to Mom stating that she must take one reflects that fact. (We are working our way through a bad stage and hubby and I are bent on seeing that it is a “stage” that will end in the not too distant future.) She starts to whine that she doesn’t need the nap, then quickly escalates to screaming when the whine wasn’t effective. Now, I’m not backing down…and I say “You can either go nicely and take your nap, or Mommy can _________ and then you can take your nap.” And I am prepared to do what it takes to get her to take the nap. So her only choice is to do it with or witnout immediate negative consequences. Is that a choice? And should I care?
Thoughts?
I should probably clarify that the things I’ve read on this are not new age stuff. The option is to obey or suffer the consequence of punishment. But I tend not to give that option a good part of the time at least.
potpouri – sound like we’re there together then!! I hear you…
I will confess I am hesitant to post on this question but I will humbly give my thoughts praying that this really stays a “this is how our family handles it” and doesn’t become a “why what you do it wrong” post. Here is how my husband fall out on this issue. First of all I will say that we have 2 VERY different children. We have one who is submissive and obedient 98% of the time. And then we have a child that heart struggles terribly with submitting to authority. And this is a lesson in life that he has got to learn because there will come a day that I can’t say to him – do this or else. He will have to learn to make good choices in life or he will end up in jail, jobless, homeless, or dead. It is a big struggle in our home. When he was younger we made him obey or he was spanked. And most often the spankings did not bend his heart to obedience but anger and defiance. As he has gotten older we lean more toward giving him the choice to obey but he always knows the consequences of his obedience. I heard a saying once when a little girl was told by her father to sit down and be quite. She was afraid of him so she did what she was told but she then told him that she wanted him to know that on the inside she was standing up screaming!!! God sees our heart and our heart is what he wants – not our outward behavior. I learned when my second one came along that I had gotten to parent my first child out of preference because he was obedient. But with my second child it took much more hard work to help to guide his heart toward obedience. And just to be clear he never gets to choose not to obey without their being natural consequences – just like in real life. Scripture tells children that when they obey it will go well with them. So the opposite should also be true. The key though for our family is not motivating out of fear. Because one day – soon for us – our boys will be in places in life that they must make these choices without me there. That is my thoughts. If you have specific questions about how this plays out you can ask or pm me
I think children choose to obey or not, just like we choose whether to obey God or not. But if we do not obey, there will be consequences, and the same goes for children. I don’t think we need to specifically call out, “If you don’t obey, your consequence will be ________.” I think that should be understood. For example, the other day my 3.5 yo was having a fit before naptime. I told her to go potty. Instead of obeying, she sat on the stool and continued the fit. Then I got her and spanked her. She knew she didn’t obey so that was the automatic consequence. Obviously after that she went potty obediently.
That being said, I can also see amyjane’s point about outward obedience. When we spank our kids, we use the Bibical model outlined in Shepherding a Child’s Heart. So there is prayer, and discussion about the heart issues involved with disobedience and why Mommy cannot allow that to remain in the child’s heart.
amyjane – I appreciate your answer and the spirit of it. That is just the kind of conversation I was trying to spark. I was actually considering posting separately some kind of encouragement to respect one another’s differences a little better and the fact the none of us know the best for every situation…and we haven’t walked in one another’s shoes. I’ve noticed parts of a few threads lately that I’ve found a very disturbing spirit in. I don’t find it to be in harmony with Christ. And, I realize I have been guilty also in this also. I just want to be careful and encourage others to do the same. Maybe it would be good to consider the ground holy. It’s human hearts we’re dealing with…hearts our Lord seeks to win and keep. Thank you!
I think it’s also going to have to do with age and with what the request is… brushing teeth for example – that’s not something you really want your children to suffer the consequences of not obeying. Naptimes for young children would also be something that would be pretty non-negotiable here, now – if I had an older child that I felt needed a nap but who didn’t want to take one, I might be fine with them accepting the consequence of an earlier bedtime, but ONLY so long as they weren’t exhibiting the ill-effects of not having enough rest – whining, crying, being overly sensitive.
Sometimes you have to determine if allowing them to choose the consequence is ceeding ground in your authority. Is it a battle for authority? Don’t lose those battles. On the other hand – when you have a child like Amyjane mentioned – try to keep those battles few and far between (I have all girls, but from what I understand there is an especially precarious balance between mothers and sons and them wanting to exert their manhood – so that might be a whole other topic). But with my strong-willed child, I try to ask God and myself – am I making an unreasonable request? Am I micro-managing? If the answer to either of those is “yes” – then I am probably being a stumbling block to her. After all, I DO want to raise kids that grow up to be independent, wise decision makers, fully aware of the reprecussions of their actions, BUT I also want them to be in the habit of obeying the godly authority put over them – in this case, their parents. It’s easier to obey God when you’re in the habit of obeying godly parents.
Great question! I’ll be looking forward to reading the wisdom of the other moms on this forum.
We try to give children options where we can, both of which we are happy with. Then when there truly is no option but one we require obedience. The more choice they have in everyday things the fewer battles we’re setting up. So in the nap time example we would give two options that both are okay for us and give the child some input. At our house quiet time is non-negotiable. You must go to your assigned spot period. However it is up to you whether you nap, look at books, or listen to the audio book that is on. Lots of options within the non-negotiable boundary.
Yes, I understand little ones who need a nap. My babies/toddlers are in my arms to fall asleep or on a couch beside me with pillow and blanket and one book. It’s not a time to talk, get up, etc. but they are welcome to stay awake. Some do, others happily curl up and sleep. And we have to handle the cranky ones who don’t choose to sleep. But I’ve learned there are a few things we cannot control. Pottying, eating, and sleeping top that list. I can require a child be in a certain place (in bed, on the potty, on the couch, at the table, etc) but what they choose to do while there is not as much in my control. And that’s okay.
Each child is different. Remember that! One needs less sleep, another needs more. One needs quiet, another needs background noise for sleep. One needs to move a lot all day long, another craves quiet time. One talks your ear off and another is less verbal. It’s just a wonderful example of Heavenly Father’s creativity in making us each individually!
This has been a great discussion!
So, here’s the latest at our house. Little miss is 4yo by the way. She had an outburst of anger after lunch while playing downstairs with her brother. He hastily threw a little figure toward her that she had been looking for and he found (I called him upstairs for something) and she screamed at him…possibly because she couldn’t find it then, but it’s right there in plain sight. SO, I called her up and sat her in a chair for the fit (told her something like it’s not ok to get so terribly angry and act like that). Then in a couple of minutes I asked her why she was so angry and she explained. So, I said we need to learn a better way to deal with situations like that, and when she didn’t propose an idea, I offered mine. She could let him know she didn’t like it that he just threw it at her and ask him nicely if he would help her find it now. She thought that sounded like an ok idea as long as she thought it would be over at that. However, since we’ve been down this road a few too many times (read this is a real habit that we need to break), I decided she would need to practice for next time by trying that out right now. She is not willing to do that, so she’s sitting in the chair still and it’s looking like she’s camped out there for the day. I told her she can get up when she can tell me that she is willing to obey. So now, to figure out where to go from here!!
Thanks for all your input. I need to reread and mull it over as these new things come along and try to figure out if and how to change my ways.
A book I have found to be incredibly helpful in parenting suggestions especially around discipline is called Gentle Measures and is available free on Kindle. This books is so wonderfully, sweetly old-fashioned (written in 1871)and so wise.
anniepeter I think you handled it great!! i think that when she decides to obey follow through and praise her for her choice FIRST and then after wards talk with her about what her choice of disobendience cost her but even ultimately point out that she sinned because God’s word tells her to obey her parents. That is the biggest deal – her sin against God. But you can also talk about how God loves us EVEN when we don’t do it excactly right and that is why we need Jesus. When we don’t obey it doesn’t go well. Ask her if she enjoyed sitting in the chair all day. If she happens to say yes just say ok and move on. It will sink in one day – i have faith. And some days are easier than others. The harder the consequence the harder to battle. Just the other day my son was in his room because he would not stop aggrevating. He was fine with the decision to begin with but when a neighbor came over to play and he had to miss out the stakes got higher and it was a struggle for him. The heart wants what it wants and it takes years – decades for God to mold us and equip us to fight our sinful flesh. I still battle it daily so I can’t expect anything less from my kiddos. They just need our help and training to prepare them for the battle and a good heap of grace when they mess up. I am always reminded of the verse/song “It;s your kindness that leads to repentance, it’s your love that brings forgiveness, It’s your mercy that leads me here to your throne of grace.” Those are the things that change our hearts. They most often take much longer, lots more thinking and engaging and missing out – even on our part. But the fruit is beautiful!!! Just beautiful!!!
Yes, I think you did great as well. FWIW, I think it’s worthwhile to model/role play the correct behavior EVERY time. We are in the process of adopting children, and one of the books I read talked about the importance of going through the proper motions rather than just talking about them. I have used role play with our bio kids as well, and found it valuable. Another conseqence for your situation that I’ve tried with my 3.5 yo is to have her sit without talking for 3 minutes since she didn’t have self control with her voice (she yelled). If they lack self control with their hands, they have to sit with their hands folded. Same for feet. I don’t think it’s quite as helpful with my almost 6 yo, but it’s tough and good practice for my 3.5 yo. Also, in case you didn’t already, make sure she apologizes to big brother for yelling, and also make sure he forgives her!
I agree that choices come into play as the child is developing in maturity. A very young child should be developing the HABIT of obedience. But once that habit is established, more choices can be given. This has happened at different ages for our kids, but usually by about the age of 9 or 10, we begin to talk about consequences and choices. Sometimes they choose wisely, and sometimes they don’t…but they are learning to live with their decisions in a safe and controlled environment. I should point out that we don’t offer choices on moral decisions or areas where they would be in sin for disobedience. Lying isn’t a ‘choice’ – it is a sin and is unnacceptable, therefore never a legitimate choice.
I would also like to say that you should be very careful to stay close to the heart of your child so that you aren’t rearing an outwardly obedient child who is rebellious at heart. Build one on one times with each child into your schedule so that you know where their hearts are.
Thank you for the recommendation of Gentle Measures! I found the book free on Kindle thanks to you (I think it is Shannon) and the methods described in it really have helped in our home. Happier kids, happier mom…and best of all, much better obedience with much less trouble. I have been finding myself frowning so much these past days. This book came just in time–God be praised.
I haven’t read the whole book yet, but so far I am enjoying every page and finding applications everywhere.
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