Was Charlotte Mason in fact a classical educator? « SCM Discussion Forum: Charlotte Mason Method Homeschooling

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Was Charlotte Mason in fact a classical educator?

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Started 1 year ago by greenebalts
Latest reply from Tukata

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nebby
Member

Binky,
I have to confess I don't know a lot about VanDamme's own philosophy. I was using her article for her critique of modern classical methods but that in no way implies that I support her own position. My impression was rather that I would not like her view any more than I like that of the classical educators she reviews.

VanDamme's article was the best one I could find for a somewhat thorough review and comparison of the different classical methods out there. I was really surprised at how little else I could find that wasn't very biased. VanDamme of course has her own position to promote too but her reviews did seem fair and even-handed.

The methods I quoted Van Damme on are not Christian but secular classical methods. I guess they are objectivist though I don't know a lot about it. Obviously, as a Christian it is a view I reject. My argument with VanDamme's criticism on Christian classical ed as not being independent would be that no thinking is independent. We are all taught by someone, whether a live person or a book. We absorb ideas and opinions from all around us. I do not believe there is truly independent thought. To provide kids with a Christian framework to their thinking is no more biased than to provide them with an atheistic or natualistic one.

I guess my final thought would be that I am not basing my opinion of classical ed on Van damme. I already had an opinion of it and VanDamme was just the best source I found to quote on it. I guess the bottom line is it is good to be aware of the biases of the people one reads and quotes but I have no real problem with taking some ideas from and quoting someone that I don't agree with overall. I am more concerned about the fact that it is so hard to find good analyses of classical and CM methods from solid Christian sources. My object in my series on hmeschool styles is to begin a discussion of what is behind the different methodologies so that we can know the assumptions behind what we teach our kids and how rather than just accpeting someone's methodology wholesale without understanding the real ideas behind it.

This is a very good discussion and I am glad you raised it. I think I will post those reply on my blog as well in case others have the same questions.
Nebby

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
sheraz
Member

@ Alicia - here is the free CM Series online link, all 6 volumes are available as downloads either as original English or Modern English:

http://www.amblesideonline.org/CM/toc.html

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
binky
Member

Nebby,
I agree with you that there is not much out there comparing the methods, I believe that is probably why we both came upon this lady's article. But as I read her article and researched more about her philosophy it made me question her stand on education in general.

I was using " classical ed" for my children this past year and was not completely satisfied which is why I was researching. I have some wonderfully Christian friends who use christian classical ed and love it and the ones who do "CM" use sonlight. I do not know anybody using true CM. I wish I did but I feel that this forum helps fulfill that void. I really wish I knew what method is really the method that God designed for our kids to learn by but I feel that as a Christian that as long as I teach my kids to "seek first the Kingdom of God" that maybe that is all that matters and method is irrelevant. Maybe God handles the rest. Maybe each family chooses what is "best" for their family. I was listening to a talk one day by the author of MFW and he said that the Hebrews taught reading for the sole purpose of being able to read and study God's word. It really made me stop and think ,as you stated in your blog, why am I educating.

To get off topic a little, I have been looking at and researching the older educational styles put out by dollar home store called eclectic educational series(including the McGuffeys series, Rays math, Thalheimers history, etc.) where most everything is taught from a Christian perspective before the time of the John Dewey public school era. Very interesting learning style. I think some of it may be outdated due to technological advances but maybe not. I think our brains are going dead from too much technology:) I am considering buying there sources just to read through the material to see what I think of it as an educational style. As much as I would love to take my kids back in time I don't know how it would resonate with them.

Thank you, Nebby, for your thoughts and comments. I am new on this journey and still trying to find my way with God's help and guidance!

Binky

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
nebby
Member

Binky,
I think Charlotte Mason's views are the most biblical I have found which is why I am here. But I would not say that there is one biblical way to go. God just doesn't give us that many specifics on method.
I think the most important things to have a biblical approach are to have a right view of children and human nature (image of God verses sinful human beings; children as complete people) and to have the right goals (knowledge of God and holiness before academics and worldly success, but also wisdom as a gift from God to be used in His service).

I don't think I have ever met a classical educator, Christian or otherwsie, who uses anything other than the Well-trained Mind. This disturbs me as I don't find the WTM very biblical or Christian. If there are other specifically Christian classical resources out there, I would love to know about them.
Nebby
http://www.lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

Binky, I know of lots of classical homeschoolers who do not use WTM. There ARE explicitly Christian classical resources. Here are my favorites:

Christine Miller, of All Through the Ages fame, has had a plan up that has influenced me since I began homeschooling:

http://www.classical-homeschooling.org/

The Bluedorn family has written a book, Teaching the Trivium, in which they claim the three "stages" are in fact the Biblical stages of knowledge, wisdom and understanding. I recommend this if you are interested in the subject. Again, it influenced me far more than WTM. Here is their site:

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/ 

You may also want to check into the writings of Andrew Kern, Tracy Lee Simmons, and Andrew Campbell. Specifically The Latin Centered Curriculum, Climbing Parnassus, and check out the CiRCE Institute. http://www.circeinstitute.org ;

Last but certainly not least, there is Martin Cothran at Memoria Press. He publishes the Classical Teacher which is part newsletter, part catalog. You haven't really dipped your toes into Christian classical unless you've read him. He is specifically Christian in his understanding of classical education. http://www.memoriapress.com

The classical education world is actually a pretty big one; I haven't even touched on specifically Catholic resources yet. I can dump those on you too if you are interested.

Michelle D

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
binky
Member

Bookworm,

I am laughing as I read your post. I agree not everyone uses WTM or SOTW. I have christian friends who do classical education who steer clear of both of these.

I actually used Memoria Press for a curriculum last year as well as being a part of a Classical Conversations community. I subscribe to Classical teacher and am thoroughly impressed with most of what I read in it. which actually led me to the purchase of the Latin Centered Curriculum and Climbing Parnassus back in the Spring. Nothing of which I have read made me question my beliefs or theirs. I have a link on my computer to the Bluedorns site and Christine Millers site.

It is funny you should mention the Catholic options, please send them to me. We are a Catholic family but I am a convert.I tend to lean towards the Protestant curriculums just because that is what I am comfortable with but I was thinking today as I was out walking that maybe the SOTW would give a more balanced account of the Good and bad roles the Catholic church played in History as well as the people who were a part as well as a balanced look at the Reformation. It seems that a lot of the protestant ones only show the negative side of the Catholic Church( it is my understanding that wise bauer is Catholic please correct me if I am wrong). I am actually surprised at the number of large Christian curriculums that use SOTW as their spine for History so it must not be horrible. I'd also like to mention for Catholic CMer's the Mater Amabilis website. http://materamabilis.org/ma/ I was planning on using SCM w/ TQ this year but may look at how SOTW might play a role.

Thank you for your comments. I still definitely love CM!! And I would love to be a nerd at your house! My kids actually think it is bad to be a nerd because society says if your smart your weird. It's really too bad, isn't it?

Binky

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

I'm sorry, binky, I called someone by your name, I was talking to "nebby" but the middle-aged circuits remembered "binky" instead, sorry! Duh! I still call my kids by the right names (MOST OF THE TIME

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
nebby
Member

Thanks for all the info, Bookworm. I suppose part of the problem is that there are just not so many Christian homeschoolers in my part of the country so I probably hear less about what's out there. We are abounding in unschoolers though.

I will try to check out as much of the Christian clasical stuff as I can. I think thye need a post all to themselves in my "approaches to homeschooling" series.

Thanks again

Nebby

http://www.lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
momto2blessings
Member

Veritas Press is also good for Classical from a Christian (reformed) perspective. My friend's daughter takes many of their online classes, using their Omnibus program. It's pretty rigorous. As a 7th grader, she does school 5-10 hours per day. Gina

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
Tukata
Member

I have been reading this thread with interest...

Does anyone have a definition of classical education? I guess even with all of these posts, I can't get my head around what classical education IS if it is not the Well-Trained Mind, but the WTM is just an expression of it. (I think that's the conclusion people were coming to?) So, if CM is an expression of classical education, what IS classical education? Or isn't there really a definition?

Thanks!

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
nebby
Member

Tukata,
I think a big part of the problem is that "classical" is used to cover a lot of things. Real classical education means the model used in the Middle Ages which in turn was supposed to be based on ancient Greek and Roman education. When people say CM was classical, they are comparing her to that Middle Ages method and form what I hear she had a lot in common with those thinkers.

But there is also the mdoern classical movement which came after CM (se she can't really be judged by it). It was revived with Dorothy Sayers and is best known through the Well-Trained Mind today. It also sought to revive what was going on in the Middle Ages but from what I can gather it also changed things or at least emphasized some aspects more than others. So I have heard it said that the 3-stage process of facts, logic, rhetoric which WTM is known for would not have been separated out like that into 3 distinct phases in the Middle Ages.

My post on (modern) classical ed is here:
http://lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/approaches-to-homeschooling-classical/

Nebby

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
Tia
Member

I skimmed this post and always find conversations on methods of eduation oh-so-interesting.

I wanted to agree wholeheartedly with the fact that there simply is no substitution for CM's own words. I haven't read NEAR what i'd like to of hers, but every time I do, I am met with God-centered, TRUE education. My husband constantly speaks these words when the Trivium/Classical model is brought up. "To what end?" Exactly.

What IS our goal? What IS education? What IS our philosophy? With these questions answered, we can go much further than we ever thought possible with zero textbooks or curricula. I have found, the hard way at times, that exploring the hows, whys and philosophies behind what we do is a much more worthwhile use of our time than perusing curriculum catalogs or websites.

Just some extra thoughts I had! Sorry if I'm reapeating what's already been said...the operative word here is "skimmed"...I SKIMMED the thread. lol

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
Tukata
Member

Nebby (and others too!) - I get a little squeamish when I read that classical is going back to the Middle Ages which then goes back to Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome...weren't they all based on pagan systems then? Why as Christians are we going back to a pagan source for education? (I'm not accusing anyone...I'm really asking)...Also, I haven't gotten to the Middle Ages in our hs yet (and I was ps myself) so I don't know much about the Middle Ages , but why would we want to emulate them? Anyway, I just got a "red flag" in my mind when I read this about classical education. I do agree that CM is very biblical in her philosophy as already mentioned by many of you, and in reading her own writings (I've read Vol 1,2,3, and 6 in modern English). I'm just trying to sort this out in my mind - if she IS classical and if classical IS based on a pagan system, then what?

IS there a "Biblical method" of education? I read the Heart of Wisdom Teaching Approach and I did love a lot of it, but I am not convinced in her use of unit studies as being Biblical.

Thoughts? Please?

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
nebby
Member

Tukata, those are some really good questions. Personally, I think we can derive some principles about education from the Bible, but I don't think any one of our methods is the biblical one. I do think CM is pretty biblical (blogged on that here: http://lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com/2012/05/01/why-i-think-charlotte-masons-philosophy-is-biblical/ ). I am working on another post on what the Bible says about education but I need to think more on it.

I always wonder why we feel the need to defend CM by saying she is classical.

In the Middle Ages, classical ed was of course Christian. At least it was Christians doing it. But the roots are in pagan society so I think your question is a good one. Basically, the Greeks were a really educated, philosophical people (unlike the Romans or for that matter the Israelites) and so I think we (western society as a whole) admire that and want to learn from their playbook so to speak.

I think CM herself would say that the Holy Spirit is the giver of all wisdom even to those who don't acknowledge Him and so any knowledge the ancient Greeks had about education or anything else is God-given. So I don't think she would have had a problem with borrowing from and learning from them.

But I do think we need to keep in mind that they were pagan and cleary there was a lot they had wrong too. So it is worthwhile to examine what we take from them and ask if it is God-honoring and biblical or not.

Nebby

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post
pslively
Member

Honestly, for several years, I thought CM was basically unschooling or lots of unit studies. The truth is that CM and those methods really have very little in common. In fact, the more I've read and learned, those methods seem almost the antithesis of what a CM education is. I think this is where the need to call CM "classical" comes in - kind of a knee-jerk response to that mistaken idea that I had and that many others have had. I think of CM as taking all of the good things from the classical education model and making it God-honoring. (I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me, but that's how I think of it.) If I were pinned down into what our method of education is I would say Classical/CM just to give people of today's era a description that conveys a certain meaning. I do use many of the so-called classical resources available today because they do seem to be based upon the same principles of CM. I am very choosy and careful because I don't ever want to use resources that are not God-honoring or that are not based upon the supposition of my child being a whole creature who needs to be wholly educated.

I do see some truth in the Dorothy Sayers classical education model and in the three stages of grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric. I guess the difference for me would be that I want to be filling their grammar-stage brains with memories of big ideas, heroic people, and beautiful things, rather than filling them with lists of kings of England.

My point in all this is that we need not reject everything that is called classical and we need not embrace everything that is called CM. I, for one, love the Writing with Ease and Writing with Skills curricula from Susan Wise Bauer and I see nothing in them that is not in harmony with a CM education. On the other hand, I really did not like using PLL or ILL which are considered to be one of the must-have's of a CM education.

I hope nothing sounds offensive in this post. If it does, it is not intentional and is not meant as a rebuttal to anything that has been previously said. I'm really just trying to work out and articulate these things for myself more than for anyone else.

Posted 11 months ago # Report Post

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