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1. trulyblessed26
   
   Member

   Hi there,

   Ok, so you guys are probably going to laugh at this post, but I figured what do I have to loose! I need some help answering my child.  My daughter, who is 4 going on 5, has developed an on going interrogation of modesty and the difference between boys and girls.  We have discussed, due to her interest, the basics of modesty in girls, like don't pull your skirt over your head and you wear tights under your skirts so you don't show your underwear and close the door when you go to the bathroom, etc. And she gets all that, but what we can't get past is why boys/men don't have to wear shirts where girls do.  I told her it would be nice/modest if boys/men wore shirts or tank tops but they don't have to like girls/women do.  I have tried to explain it in many ways, like because God made boys and girls different and women have breasts where boys don't and even how it is just plain illegal for girls to not wear shirts where men don't have to.  It SO doesn't help that it is summer and there is a plethora of boys/men out there jogging bare-chested on the road and swimming seemingly every where we go!  Plus, even the art in our bible has bare-chested men. No answer thus far has been good enough for her.  She says she wants to be a boy now too so she can run around bare-chested.... :-)  So, am I missing a better way of explaining this?  Is this just the nature of a 4 year old and I have to wait for her to mature and/or the winter??  Are there any good modesty books for children (that deal with the boy issue too)?  Any help/advise would be greatly appreciated! :-)

   Posted 1 month ago #

2. Sanveann
   
   Member

   Well, I can kind of see her point! After all, women wear shirts to cover their breasts, and little girls don't really HAVE those yet ...

   Can you ask her what she doesn't like about wearing shirts? Is she just too warm and uncomfortable? Does she just like to be naked? Maybe some naked time when you're at home would get it out of her system.

   Posted 1 month ago #

3. Gem
   
   Member

   LOL I do not think modesty comes naturally for children   If it is important in your family, then just keep working at it.  She is close to the age where she will be worried about what other kids think of her, and if she takes her shirt off and they tease her it will probably be very effective making her want to keep it on.

   I have a little boy who has had a very difficult time staying dressed LOL - now this is not a big issue for us, as we have no religious tradition of modesty, and live in a totally isolated rural setting, but I just kept putting his pants back on him LOL, and one winter when he was about 4 I think, the "logical consequences" of disrobing took effect, i.e. he was too cold, and by the end of winter he kind of forgot about his determination to be naked and we transitioned into summer just fine, with shorts and tshirts.  About this time he developed a natural sense of decorum, so to speak, and if he has on tshirt and undies (what he sleeps in) and an early visitor show up, he will run put on pants before being asked.

   So all that is to say, yes, I think there is a natural progression, if you are willing to let that unfold.  That said, I put my foot down about appropriate dress when it matters to me - I think a kid is capable of keeping their clothes on in the store, even if they are allowed to take them off at home.

   As for the difference between boys and girls, this does have its ridiculous points when seen through a child's eyes.  My husband and his friend were giving our son a haircut a few months ago and teasing him about getting long hair like a hippy (now please know that this was kindhearted teasing, as we come from the back to the land tradition and know and love a lot of long haired hippies ).  Max asked me a while back, "Mom, when girls get long hair, how come nobody calls them a hippy?"  LOL  Indeed!

   Good luck!  And remember she won't be four forever, soon she will be fourteen, and though I don't know from experience (yet!) I am guessing the clothes and boys issues will be a lot more difficult then!  Sorry, not very good words of encouragement

    

   Gem

   Posted 1 month ago #

4. Bookworm
   
   Member

   Gem, this can be a tough one.  I don't know your family's personal beliefs about this, but in my family this would not be acceptable.  I don't let my BOYS go shirtless.  I don't have any girls to practice on, so I have no hands-on experience.  When something similar came up with a friend of mine with similar beliefs to mine, though, this is what she did.  She taught her daughter some truths--that women's bodies are very beautiful, and very special.  God made them a certain way so that they could cooperate with Him one day and have children.  The parts of a woman's body are so special that they should be "wrapped up" like a special gift.  We like our special gifts to be wrapped up, don't we?  That makes them more special.  In the same way, our bodies and the special things they do--the ability to have a baby one day---makes them special and so we wrap them up!  One day, when she is older, she'll be glad she respected her body in this way because she'll still be special and ready to find out more about the special gift God gave her.

   So that's just a thought.  I said some similar things to my sons--emphasizing that respecting our bodies means that we dress appropriately, and that after the Fall God intended us to wear appropriate clothing. 

   Just a thought, and if your personal beliefs aren't the same it may not matter as much to you. 

   Michelle D

   Posted 1 month ago #

5. LindseyD.
   
   Member

   We began teaching our ds and dd about modesty at ages 5 and 4, respectively. It didn't come easily at first because they had been used to changing clothes in front of each other, bathing together until ages 4 and 3, and what made it even more difficult was that they shared a room. We shared that God wants us to be modest because our bodies aren't meant to be shown to others. We've never dealt with the specific question of "Why do girls have to wear shirts when boys don't?", so I'm not sure how to answer that. Our ds does wear a shirt all the time, even at the swimming pool, so his sister never sees him "topless". ha! In our case, modesty between siblings wasn't something we really enforced until about a year ago, and I began to realize that if I didn't enforce it early enough, they might eventually wonder why one day they were allowed to take a bath together and the next day they weren't.

   Two-piece bathing suits are something else we don't allow. I know little girls are adorable in bikinis, especially when their pudgy tummies poke out. But, I didn't want my dd growing up wearing bikinis. Someday that tummy wouldn't stick out anymore and there would be breasts and hips where there aren't any now. I didn't want her to be allowed to wear a bikini until she matured, when I would have to say, "Ok, your body is too mature now to wear a two-piece. We'll have to get you a one-piece this year." I just know her response would be, "Why, Mom? You've always let me wear a bikini. Why do I have to stop now?" 

   To avoid that conversation, we've just never allowed two-piece bathing suits. With your daughter, you could see if that approach would work for you. "Sally, I know you like to run around with your shirt off, but that's not appropriate in our home. We have to keep our bodies covered and be modest." That way, when she's 12, she's not saying, "But Mom, you let me run around without my shirt when I was 4 (and 5 and 6 and so on), why can't I now?"

   To me, modesty might be something a young child doesn't understand right now, but we do have rules in our home; and those rules will be followed. Understanding might have to come later. I now have a very modest 5yo dd and a very modest 6yo ds. They didn't understand what modesty meant at ages 3 and 4, but they do now, and they don't question it.

   I'm also sure that she will develop socially to understand that Mom and sisters or girl cousins don't go topless, so she won't want to forever either. Like Gem said, she won't be 4 forever! Hope that's helpful.

   Posted 1 month ago #

6. quietwatersmommy
   
   Member

   Lindsey- I totally agree with you. I did the same thing when my two oldest girls, now 15 and 13, were very young. Never allowed the cute little bikinis or short-shorts or halter tops. It really paid off! They have always been very modest and have not had to "un-learn" wearing those types of clothes. Just set the rules and boundaries...it actually gives them more freedom, because they don't have to make those types of choices when they are older. They will already know your standards and feel safe within them.

   It also is vital that Mom is modest, too, to set a good example.

   Nanci

   Posted 1 month ago #

7. rosemwelch
   
   Member

   Honestly, that's a good question, beacause I don't know why, either.

   If you are religious, and your religion teaches modesty, then you can use stories from your religious teachings to show them why you should dress modestly.

   If you are modest, then you can teach your children that covering women is for the comfort of yourself and some of the people around you.

   If you're me, then you can teach your children to follow the law and their own comfort. In other words, there isn't any reason for her to wear her shirt around her own home, unless she wants to. If you're in Maine, or other states with decent laws, you can choose to wear a shirt or not wear a shirt, exactly as you please.

   Really, the idea of wearing a shirt for the sole purpose of modesty brings to mind the burqua, which is also indoctrinated at the 'right' thing to do in children from a very early age.

   Posted 1 month ago #

8. Gem
   
   Member

   LOL I guess I am trying to say about the same thing as everyone else - there are modesty rules for every household, and until they make social sense for a child and are internalized, they are external rules that have to be constantly reinforced by parents.  Modesty just does not seem to come naturally.  But that is what "culture" is - the rules we choose to follow that give us commonality with others in our group.  

   I didn't mean to imply that we are nudists or anything LOL because that is certainly not the case.  We just don't happen to have any set of beliefs for modesty that are based in religious dogma - instead I use my own instincts and common sense, and it seems to be working out fine.  I certainly expect different behavior from my daughter now that she is ten than I did when she was four!   And that was different than when she was two.  I think a four year old can be expected to to keep her shirt on if told to, and I think if she has a four year old brother (theoretically) then maybe her point is a good one and he should keep his shirt on, too!  Even if grown men are going shirtless.  When the kids are grown, they will make their own rules, but when they are two, four, and ten, and fourteen, they should expect (and receive) "guidance" LOL.  Hopefully the guidance will inform their decisions when they are grown.

   I live in a community that has several different and distinct social/religious groups, so I see the gamut of modesty rules and they are all fine with me.  My closest neighbors and a great deal of my relatives are Pentecostal and they have modesty rules very different from my own, that is fine, and our children are great friends.  None of it ever gets in the way - we respect each other!  Some in this community don't even allow men and boys to wear short sleeved shirts.  No bare arms.  In our hot summers, this is a big commitment to their beliefs!    

   My biggest concerns with modesty and children is that I hate to see children feeling like their bodies are shameful, instead of a special treasure.  And I don't tolerate among my children or any children visiting my home any of that "Eww, I saw your (whatever part), gross!"  if they happen to catch a glimpse of someone, which is inevitable.  I think that is disrespectful to the individual specifically and the opposite sex in general.

   Posted 1 month ago #

9. LindseyD.
   
   Member

   Our teaching of modesty is spiritually based...we do not consider our family a "religious family". The Bible tells us several times about modesty, and even compares immodest women to harlots and prostitutes. I can't think of any specific verses at the moment on male modesty, however from my own experience, I can say that it makes me uncomfortable to see men walking around without shirts on, unless they're at the pool or another appropriate place. Even then though, it is inappropriate for a member of my own family to be shirtless at the pool. When I was a child/teenager, my own father would walk around in the evenings in only boxer shorts, and that made me extremely uncomfortable and embarrassed me tremendously. Unfortunately, my opinion didn't matter to my parents while I was growing up.

   There are many hypocritical things in our culture today...I suppose the requirement of women to wear shirts while men are not required to could be considered one of those things. However, for my own comfort, my family's Christian witness to others, my deep conviction of modesty both for myself and my children, and above all, the biblical teaching of modesty is the drive behind our practice of modesty for girls and boys, Mommy and Daddy.

   Back to the original question asked by trulyblessed26, I would say that if you won't allow your daughter to run around naked at 7 or 12 or 17 years old, she should not be allowed to run around disrobed at 4 years old. 

   Out of curiosity, how does your husband feel about modesty in general? That would also be a large determining factor in how you handle this situation, I would think.

   

   Lindsey

   Posted 1 month ago #

10. quietwatersmommy
    
    Member

    Just wanted to point out that "modesty" conjures up alot of different ideas. In Charlotte's day, most people would have agreed on the same basic standards of modesty, but that is not true in our day.

    Modesty does not equal wearing a burqua. Nor does it make children ashamed of their bodies...on the contrary, it makes them cherish and respect their bodies.

    There are many different types of modest dress....from those who believe in wearing only dresses to those who believe in wearing jeans, and everything in between.  

    Respectfully,

    Nanci

    Posted 1 month ago #

11. 2flowerboys
    
    Member

    Yes indeed Nanci! It is having respect of your body! Boys and men are attracted to girls/women's body. God made them that way--towards their wife!!! Training your child to be modest will lead to modesty later in life! Having respect for your body will lead to boys/men respecting you.

    My husband pointed out to me when we were dating that unfortunately/fortunately(towards your wife) boys/men are attracted to girls/women's bodies. They are attracted by sight. Even by the slightest hint of short pants/skirts or low blouses. He later pointed out when seeing women/girls dressed very modestly he thinks they are pretty....no matter what they "look" like!! 

    In my early 20's I dressed with the times. I didn't show cleavage but my shirts were tight. I am short in stature so mini skirts come to my knees LOL but I still wore them and when I sat they rose up. I dressed for myself, other girls, and have to admit for the guys. But didn't know that I was causing lustful thoughts! Yes, men need to control themselves. But, we can be as much to blame.

    Unfortunately, men are attracted to young girls. And teaching your girl to be modest will pay off in the future. At home, if your little wants to be naked in her own room that would be a good idea!

    I LOVE whoever said that are bodies are special gifts to be wrapped up!! That is showing respect --not being ashamed!

    Respect-an attitude of admiration or esteem

    Shameful-bringing shame or disgrace; injurious to reputation; disgraceful

    Posted 1 month ago #

12. trulyblessed26
    
    Member

    Hi there again, :-)

    We don't allow her to run around naked willy nilly.  The only time she is is before and after her shower.  And we dress modestly in that she wears long shorts (to her knees), no short ones, skirts with tights underneath, and her bathing suit is swim shorts and a swim shirt, just like me, so I am pretty sure she knows where we stand on the issue of modesty in our family (husband wears shirt too) but it is just the confusion of seeing so many boys/men out running and swimming with their shirts off where we are running into a hard time getting past that.  I find it easy to explain modesty for girls but having a harder time explaining it about boys since to most people it is totally ok for men to go shirtless and as I said before, it is even painted in the bible pictures we see, from the old testament Israelite slaves to Christ through the passion.  I guess maybe as many of you suggested that at 4 and 5 she may just not get it, but it will come with age/maturity.  I LOVE the wrapped up gift explanation though from Michelle!  And it was also very helpful to hear about how some boys can't even show bare arms from Gem because then I can explain a range of modesty for boys.  So, any other suggestions on dealing with explaining boy modesty would be fabulous! Thank you so much!

    Posted 1 month ago #

13. lgeurink
    
    Member

    We are a "no two piece swim suit" family.  My husband's parents live on a lake and when we are there with female cousins who are allowed to wear swim suits (the youngest is 4) my 5yo dd asked-in front of their aunts and uncles- why their cousin was wearing an inappropriate swim suit.  Awkward!  My comment, whenever they are wondering about the variety of family rules or cultural norms, is that every family decides what they feel is appropriate and what is not.  Every family makes their own choices and this is our family's choice, it doesn't make their cousins wrong and us right, it is just what mom and dad believe.  We also have this discussion about when they are allowed to have sleepovers as their cousins are allowed to and they are not.  I do not want them to be judgemental of families whose views are different then ours because in reality if it is not a salvation issue, then it really is the personal belief and interpretations of scripture that individual families come to.  When they asked about why boys and not girls, I just said that it is appropriate for boys and not for girls because we have different types of chests.  They were fine with that.  My 7yo dd has become aware of personal modesty on her own at about 6 and my 5yo dd may have to be reminded to wear clothing till she is 60-she is just our nudie patootie!  It sounds like this is just the nature of your 4yo and the older and more mature she gets, the more she will understand. 

    Posted 1 month ago #

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