high school science, that's not apologia? « SCM Discussion Forum: Charlotte Mason Method Homeschooling

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high school science, that's not apologia?

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Started 10 months ago by MamaWebb
Latest reply from MamaWebb

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MamaWebb
Member

Hello ladies. I have spent some time looking at high school science. at first, i just figured I would do Apologia, but my daughter has really disliked Apologia's Physical Science. In fact, she hasn't enjoyed science since we stopped konos and hands on discovery. while she doesn't know what she wants to do with her life, she knows she doesn't want it to be science or math based.

i've looked at Christian Liberty Press's Biology. I've also looked at Principles, Theories & Precepts: Biology, which looks spot on for my daughter's style. http://www.timberdoodle.com/Principles_Theories_Precepts_of_Biology_p/570-573.htm

But then I found Wes Olson's dvd sets, Biology 101 and Chemistry 101 (physics slated to be released in 2013). The accreditation guide actually looks rather fun, very CM friendly. she watched the dvd intro sample over my shoulder and said, ooo can i do that? but i am concerned about if such a science course will prepare her enough to be a good college candidate. http://www.the101series.com/bio/contents.html

Any other thoughts or suggestions? Anything else you've used out there? I looked at Science Shepherd Biology, which looks lovely, but they have no other resources to follow up with for Chemistry or Physics? Thoughts? I am so confused...

TIA,

Amy

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
missingtheshire
Member

Biology 101 is a lovely supplement to a high school science course, but I would not consider it a course in and of iteself. If you do the lesson plan that goes with it, it may be sufficient for a child not going to college, but if a child plans on college I would not consider it enough. Perhaps others have different views, but that is my thought. We used it as a supplement. We used CLP Biology and the girls enjoyed it, they did not care for Apologia. Linda

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

No, they will not prepare her enough for a good college candidate. For a good college, you are looking at a minimum of 2, preferably 3, high school level science courses WITH rigorous labs and WITH math. There is a lot of math involved especially in chemistry. She needs it. Even if she goes somewhere and ends up taking Chemistry for English Majors (yes, that exists) they will expect her to do her own equations and labs. You'll need to account for those in some way, because it's not on Biology 101 and Chemistry 101 (actually, if they were going to stick to college type numbering, they ought to be Biology 010 and Chemistry 010. These two courses are not in any way equivalent to an entry level college course!)

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

I have to also say one other thing. It's something to think about. I know lots of kids say they don't like Apologia. Well, I don't like cleaning toilets and mowing grass. :-) It may be about time to start telling our teenagers that life is full of difficult things we don't like, and the teen years are the perfect time to get that figured out. :-) It is not the worst thing in the world to suck it up and do a course even if one doesn't love it. We are talking about almost-adults here. Our kids get the tremendous privilege of education. If they have places they want to go, it's high time they decided to put in some sweat equity and do the dirty work whether it's loved or not. I have to tell you--if Apologia Science is as bad as it gets for our kids, they are going to be very, extremely, extraordinarily LUCKY and blessed. There are helps and things available, and it is JUST NOT THAT HARD. It is work, yes, but WORK IS GOOD. Spending a lifetime filing sales reports or unraveling bad code or fixing networks or patient care or drumming up business every single day, 8 plus hours a day, for a lifetime is HARD. High school science? Piece of cake. A little perspective may just be what we all need.

Now, I will say this is NOT the first time I delivered this same lecture today--once to one of my own. ;-)

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
MamaWebb
Member

yeah, i remember how much math was in college science; i took bio 1 & 2, chem 1 & 2, and organic chem. but having been in public highschool, i just did what i was told to. In high school, i took honors bio, honors chem (did dreadfully), college prep physics (did well), and Advanced Placement Bio, and I got a 5 on the AP test. i have a decent science background. plus my husband is kind of a physics freak and could teach it i'm sure. he had a 110% average in his physics course in college.

i am just so torn as to how to guide my daughter who is not interested in science at all and doesn't even know what she IS interested in. i dread dragging her through something that will hate science more, you know? i want her to marvel in the complexity of God's creation!

Also, is there any reason to have concern about jumping around between different publishes for different courses?

tx,

amy

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
missceegee
Member

Michele - GREAT words of wisdom and I'm saving for posterity!

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
crazy4boys
Member

You know your child best. But also keep in mind that MANY, if not ALL people change their majors in college. Some very non-sciency people all the sudden decide they very much want to do something in science. Same goes for very sciency people turning to literature or what have you. Our goal with our children is to provide a solid foundation so that they can do whatever they want and that the lack of something 'not done' in high school, or 'not done at the appropriate level' will not hamper them.

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
missingtheshire
Member

I also don't think we should let our students get away with things if the only reason is they don't like it or enjoy it and they are looking for an easy ride, but if the needs are met by other courses which are accepted by the colleges they wish to attend, then I see nothing wrong with the switch. One of my daughters is aiming for an equine science degree with equine business management. She has done a lot of the coursework online already alongside her normal school work, from a top class equine college in England - this coming year she will be doing more. She did not need the chemistry course as what she needed was covered in the equine courses she did and next year all being well we will look at her doing her practical work in Europe and to do more courses. So in her case it was not a case of following the normal courses and it is fine. Her sister, did biology and is now doing marine biology which is an Apologia course, she just chose CLP over Apologia for regular bio...she is likely not going on to college, and will do courses online, due to her disability, there are many things that go into the decision making process of courses to take and not take, one size does not fit all. However, kids should of course do things they don't like, but it does not have to be based on one book or course, there are a variety of ways to get where you are going, all involve hard work....so no you should not let your child have an easy ride just because she wants one, but you can do a different course.

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
MamaWebb
Member

Michelle, Linda et al,

I totally agree. Somewhere in the "You have to face the tough things that you don't like" and the "I have to crack the whip over you like a taskmaster" and the "here's something easy just because you don't want to do the hard thing" there must be a balance. I have four other kids to oversee as well as my oldest daughter, and have struggled to have the physical time and ability to be checking over my newly-unmotivated almost-highschooler as if she were a first grader. Believe me, this a lecture delivered near daily to my kids. i know they can't have it easy just because they don't like it. i'm just trying to figure out if there is something out there that will appeal a little more to her learning style, and therefore allow me a little less micro managing. it's been hard b'c my oldest was always the most motivated and most independt and most trustworthy. and in the last year or two, that's really not been the case. we live far from her friends and our church, and so i think those adolescent changes combined with out multiple moves have made it hard for her. she feels isolated from her 'peeps' so to speak. we see friends maybe once a week, we attend church on Sunday, and she participates in youth group twice a month, even though we're almost an hour now from "home." maybe she feels a little aimless. she was thinking today, and there wasn't even one thing that she could come up with that interested her as even a possible dream for what to study or do as a career.

i just want a solid path and solid trajectory for her through high school because she is quite bright and she's a great writer and a great reader. as we start high school next year, i want to know that the path we guide her on is the right one for her, that it's sustainable, and that she doesn't wind up with major gaps in her knowledge, character, or in our relationship because we dragged her through the mud insisting she do something outside of her abilities/learning style - just because we said "it was good for her." do you get what i'm aiming at? aaaaaaahghghghghg, where is the balance?????

sigh,

Amy

(thanks for the vent)

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

Yes, I understand the need for balance. And vent away!

An idea. How old is this girl? I do believe in serious science. However, I don't know that it has to be NOW. What about taking a few months off, doing some career inventory work, maybe visit a college or two, maybe shadow some friends at different jobs? Put on as an actual class for credit "career exploration" and see if you can find something that CLICKS. I'm really, myself, unsure how to motivate a teen who doesn't have an idea for the future. They will probably change it (many times, most likely) but I have sat down with all mine and said "Here's what adulthood looks like. You get your own place. Your own car. Your own whatever you want. You set your own hours. I don't bug you about ANYTHING. Sound good? Of course it does. There is one catch--you need a JOB." Really, anyone over 14, if they don't have a clue, they need to take some time and GET one before messing around too much longer. They are too old to be motivated by rewards, punishments--they need their own vision. If there is any chance they want the type of job that requires college, that itself is a big motivator. I told one of mine once that if he ever wanted to make anywhere near a middle class living, he needed either a sensible college education in a good field or he needed to be of an entrepreneurial bent--which is its own set of hard work, and which he will also need multiple skills for. Perhaps both! That really straightened him up, and made him willing to write ESSAYS (my own kids' bugaboo---they'd take science all day, but cringe at writing essays!!!) But I make them do it--and do it a LOT--anyway, even if they moan and complain and I need to ride them all day about it. They can't make college without being able to write a decent essay. Or balance a chemical equation. Or titrate a solution. Or . . . And there is the motivation.

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
LDIMom
Member

All I can say is that I know how MamaWebb feels. I have 6 children, and right at this very moment I'm wondering what in the world I'm doing. Is any of this worth it? Serioulsy. The bad attitudes around here are just wearing me down.

I know everyone says character training and all, but I am human and I am TIRED. I can't even get one of mine to copy down some math work (which he acted terrible about during this lesson).

How do you MAKE them do something they refuse to do? I guess I just don't have it figured out and maybe I never will. But I haven't had much success with it lately. And I am wondering how in the world will I do this dance this year, shuffling 6 children at 6 different stages of math, reading, etc?

For now, my 13YO son is wading through Apologia General Science (and this is our 2nd ATTEMPT as he didn't do it last year though he was supposed to), but I just can't see it being our High School course.

I think it is great for people who have it figured out how to get your children to submit, but I haven't figured it out. We take away privileges (scouts), but they don't have cell phones or game boys or computers (we have 2 family ones) or a lot of privileges *typical* teens have ... so I guess I'm OT except to say I totally get where MamaWebb is coming from.

If your child hates science (or even school as my 12YO does; yes, he really does), then what do you do???

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

Do you know what John Adams' father did when he was balking at doing schoolwork?

Put him out to agricultural labor for a bit. It's amazing---he came back from that all ready to study at school. He saw the future and didn't like it--decided maybe the future involving school wasn't so bad. I'll confess--I did this once. One son of mine (who shall remain nameless) found himself helping roof a friend's home when he decided he didn't need college. It worked an amazing attitude adjustment.

If you haven't already figured it out---with a teen, it isn't really about *making* them submit to you. It is about their upcoming collision with the Real World. They pretty much have to decide. If they won't study for high school---find an unpleasant minimum wage job and have him job shadow. Give him the amount of cash he'd earn in a month doing this job. Then turn him loose to find an apartment, figure out transportation and food and insurance and let him know just what life is going to be like (and that he won't be mooching off of you forever.) Tell him he can prepare for whatever future he wants. If he wants minimum wage and Game Stop then great. But he has to live with the consequences. If he wants a "real" job, one that'll earn what he'd like to make, then the ladder steps in between are something he is just going to have to decide to do. You can't get Really Cool Big Bucks Job if you don't know how to do anything. :-) It's just a fact. Maybe you can get Turning the Road Signs in the Construction Project in the Heat--but even so, you are going to need to have certain skills (not many for this, to be honest--just showing up regularly and doing what you are told.) In my family, we have an automatic object lesson--my dh's older brother is 46, works part time at Game Stop, lives with his mother, and has no life. I tell my kids--you can be Uncle Steve if you want, but you are NOT living for free with me, so you are going to have to find someone else to mooch off of, because you will have a tough time living even in a dump on part-time minimum wage income.

Nothing is more motivating than a good, hefty dose of Reality.

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
LDIMom
Member

Yeah, I hear you Bookworm, but the thing is that we have some children who may intellectually be relegated to that job turning signs on a roadcrew. For one child, we just hope he can live independently from us.

But yeah, the ones with the attitude at the moment can certainly earn college degrees from just an intellecutal ability standpoint.

I am just so weary already and we just started back.

BTW, after sitting on the couch for an hour and a half while the other children were playing with LEGO, outside, etc, 12YO DS finally wrote out that math copywork. I told him it wasn't b/c he couldn't remember the metric equivalents, but rather b/c he had presented such a poor attitude toward the lesson and ultimately toward me as I tried to help him.

Bookworm, thanks for your posts and insights btw; I always feel better after reading them and totally concur with you that we can't let them off the hook. And all in all, Apologia has it all. I am thinking we're going to have to fork out the bucks to get oldest DS into the tutorial down the road, where they offer the Apologia classes and he can take just that (or as many others as he/we decide). Then he would have to answer to someone besides just me.

Boy, this job is hard and even harder some days!

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
sheraz
Member

And you're not even making the Really Cool Big Bucks either! Where is the justice in that???

Hang in there!

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

Well, obviously it's a totally different picture if your kids have limitations--for many kids a simple job IS a victory. But if you have one who COULD do, but just doesn't want to put out the effort--then some persuasive time is often very, very helpful. Also, in the case of boys, a dad or a male mentor are IMO very necessary. It's just different coming from a guy than from Mom. You have a point in that at times, it CAN be helpful to have to answer to someone other than Mom. I've sure found that, at times. Sigh. Also do look up the resource Linda mentioned. I don't think the videos alone are a stand-alone course, but I will say, I haven't seen very much else that is any MORE interesting than Apologia. :-)

Posted 10 months ago # Report Post

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