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Another narration question...

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Started 1 year ago by hsmom22
Latest reply from Claire

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hsmom22
Member

I am getting ready to start more consistent written narration with my two children, and I am wondering a few things. First, how many narrations should I ask for each week? I was thinking of having one assigned 'reading' book for each child that they would use for this process, just to ease in to it and so they can get more familiar with doing it regularly. The continuity of the resource would help me, too, I'm sure. Anyway, my second question has to do with correcting a narration from an Language Arts perspective, as we were discussing in the recent narration thread. Are the corrections pointed out and discussed or are they written on their paper, so it becomes more like a first draft? And, if that's the case, would they then rewrite a post-correction final copy? As I write this, I think I'm liking the first-draft/final-copy approach, but I'd like to hear what you seasoned CMers recommend. Thanks so much!

Michelle

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

How old are they? I usually start with one a week, and then when that becomes not too dramatic, move up to two, eventual goal of writing something every day. I do a combination of oral discussion and writing on the copy. I want to caution you to not overdo this at first. If your child turns out a page of narration after great effort and we find 62 things wrong, it can be VERY discouraging. I don't aim for "perfect" papers until much later. I just pick a few things, maybe even one at a time, to fix, and when we move up in frequency I don't always correct each and every narration. We choose one a week to work on more. What I typically do is to choose one or two fairly glaring issues to correct. We discuss different ways to address the problem, and I'll write suggestions or perhaps just underline the area to have the child himself think about how to reword the problem area.

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
hsmom22
Member

One is eleven and the other is almost nine. I know that is a bit early for written narration (the almost 9 yro), but he has been doing it off and on for a couple of years now and asks to do it on his own, not the other way around, so I want to encourage it and not squelch it, as he really seems to enjoy it. That's why I want to be sure I am approaching it correctly, so as not to all of a sudden change the rules when he reaches a certain age. That's my thinking anyway. He's a talker (my younger one) and definitely likes to narrate orally more (and is quite good at it), so I encourage that, but when he asks to write, I don't discourage it. Now, with my 11 yro, I think putting his thoughts on paper is helpful. He gives me much more (and remembers more) when he writes as opposed to orally narrating, although a back-and-forth discussion produces great results. However, CM narrating isn't that, is it? It's more of me quietly listening, right? Sometimes, I just can't help asking questions, though. I'm kind of naturally socratic that way. Is that wrong? Should I just be...quiet? Yikes...I don't know if I can do that. Ack!

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

There IS a time and a place for discussion. We discuss fluently, often, even sometimes LOUDLY here! I do try to keep it out of narration, though. The purposes are different. Narration is the act of knowing. Discussion is taking what you know and expressing opinion. But you have to know something first (unless you are a politician ) I do want to know what was in the reading and how he felt about it, but we tend to discuss more in the evenings when everyone is available. I do ask the occasional question if I don't understand something. I guess I have a long-running aversion to Socratic type questioning because I am old and I remember The Paper Chase. LOL (no, any mom under 40 will almost certainly not remember it--mid-70's TV show).

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
hsmom22
Member

Thanks, Michelle. It's very helpful for me to hear that it's okay to ask some clarifying-type questions at narration time but, also, that I should put some distance between the actual narration and a more in-depth discussion of the material, and the two shall not meet. I don't know why I didn't see the importance of that before. It makes perfect sense. Thank you so much. I'll get the hang of this yet!

Michelle

PS: Oh, speaking about narration (oral or written) here, what do I do if they say (or write) an inaccuracy (not deliberate, just through not being attentive or similar)? Do I keep mum, do I have them do the reading again, or is that lesson lost forever and we just move on to the next reading tomorrow? Basic questions, I know, I'm sorry, but I'm just trying to get a more clear handle on all of this. I really want to implement the process correctly this time. Thanks.

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
cyndi60
Member

hsmom22,

Yes...I'm kind of wondering the same thing to on the PS.

Thanks

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
simple home
Member

If there is a mistake in a child's narration, you may correct at the very end. Sometimes another child who was listening will correct them, which is even better. Keep in mind that this is AFTER the narration, not during. That breaks their chain of thought and is frustrating to the narrator.

One thing I learned at the Ambleside Internship is to say, "Stick with the text please." This has helped me tremendously for my kids who tend to go off on a tangent or opinion. It is a good way to correct if needed during the narration that puts the responsibility back on them to think through the material, without the teacher being too wordy about it.

Also, readings are done only once. This keeps their attention. If they miss something, say, "Oh, that's a shame. I guess you need to listen better next time." If the reading material is interesting, they don't want to miss it again. :)

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
hsmom22
Member

Thank you, simple home, that helps a lot! So, then, a follow-up question I have is...can I ever just let the children read the material independently and then narrate it back to me, either orally or written, without my being familiar with the selection? What I mean by this is, must I pre-read everything ahead of time and/or have the student read aloud to me (rather than independently) to be sure they got the gist of the reading and so I know that their narration is accurate? I have always wondered about this. When they are younger, for instance, I could see having to do this--and perhaps as we are beginning this new-to-us narration process--but as they get older, I'm not sure. At what point (approximate age or skill level) would I relinquish the reading to the child to be done independently. And, then, how would I verify the narration's accuracy? Must I pre-read everything? Or, would this only be necessary until a solid foundation has been laid in terms of the narrative process? Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Michelle

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

I actually do try to at least skim over the reading. Oftentimes I do this very quickly when the child comes to me to narrate. (usual scenario--teen comes upstairs, hands me book, goes to the little gentleman's room, comes back and narrates to me). You are right, it is hard to preread everything when you have several children. There are days I hear or read a dozen narrations. But in general, I really haven't had a problem with teenagers inventing stuff or mistaking stuff. If there is something they did not understand, I try to read the passage and we discuss it later. I actually just this year quit reading the entire passage of, say, Abraham Lincoln's World with my 11yo. He rarely makes a mistake, and even if he does, even though I didn't preread just for that reading, I HAVE heard the book three times now. LOL I guess you will probably just have to listen as their ability to narrate develops and then at some point you have to trust them. My oldest son now even narrates stuff to me that I can't understand (advanced physics--I have no idea what he is talking about most of the time!) which is one reason I transitioned to doing the textbook tests in those classes.

My thing I often say when I hear something inaccurate in a narration is "Did the book say that?" Then the child can own up, ,or say he thought so. We don't REREAD the passage, but I do expect him to show me where it said that. That usually takes care of the problem.

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
my3boys
Member

I'll ask my kids the same question, "Was that in the book/passage/chapter?" I can always tell if they're being truthful (I've yet to have them out right lie). Plus, they know that I can pick up any given book at any given time to preread/skim if I want to, so there's no reason to be untruthful. I have wondered how much detail has been left out, but to solve that, I'm starting to say, "Then what happened?" and be more patient. If I hadn't read the book I make sure they know that and that I want to feel as if I have through their narrations. They're usually pretty good at it, if I keep up with it.

I do have one question:

Let's say your child does leave out a chunk of some chapter/passage that you feel pieced most of the passage together, you don't say that do you?? It still falls under the, "Tell me what YOU remember?" Right?? I do want my my kids to listen for detail, etc., but I don't want them to feel as if they should've remember what I felt was important. I'm not suggesting that a one sentence narration would be acceptable, especially from a 12yo, but he may not see what I see in the passage, and that has to be okay, right?? I'm supposing this question is different from inaccuracies, since that would be bringing in something that really didn't happen (which I have had to curb my middle boy from doing--huge imagination).

Great discussions...I love discussing narration (even though we're pretty new to it compared to others).

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
hsmom22
Member

I agree! This has been a very helpful discussion! Thank you, everyone, for helping me (and others) to understand the process of narration better. I am really excited and very hopeful that with a little consistency (me!) using this approach is going to be a wonderful addition to our homeschool. Thank you, all!

Michelle

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

Yes, sometimes children are going to come away from a chapter or book with VERY different ideas than I thought. It is a difficult thing for many of us to get over. Remember when WE were in school and if we didn't provide the answer the teacher wanted she kept asking us? Until finally we figured out what SHE thought we ought to think? Then we just did that. Charlotte would have hated that. There are maybe a few times when Mom would also want to add her narration--once I had a boy narrate a chapter on the Civil War and ONLY mentioned the weapons. Really. Didn't even tell me who had won the battle. I did kind of redirect with a "mommy" narration. Then he narrated some more and remembered other things. But most of the time, I remember to zip my lip and listen to what THEY found important. It can not only be just as valid, but even gives me a little window into their hearts and how their minds work. Which I can always use! So if you really can't bear to leave it the way it was left, it may sometimes be OK to add a little of your own narration anyway. My kids used to ask me why I didn't have to narrate, anyway, and so occasionally, I did. But most of the time, sit back and marvel at how different we all are, and how rich good readings are. I mean, there are passages in some books that only have a tiny bit of idea in them at all. How wonderful to read books with children rich enough that everyone in the room can narrate something themselves.

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
my3boys
Member

I couldn't agree more, and I'm fairly new to this! We're reading Missionary Stories with the Millers and I don't usually ask for narrations, well, this morning I did. Both of my two older boys shared similar parts, but then again, a little different. They both got the main characters first name wrong but I attributed that to how early in the morning it was. Overall, they both got the gist of the story and were able to go from the beginning to the end, which is something I've been working with my 9yo on. I was pleased with what they remembered and refrained (zipped my lip!) from adding my .02.

My goal is to help them enjoy this process and not feel that mom is only going to criticize what they remembered or forgot. When I start out saying, "Tell me all you remember about...." then later tell them that that wasn't what they should've remembered but that they should've remembered "such and such", I'm being a bit hypocritical :( I know my kids will begin to NOT enjoy to narrate out of fear of criticism. My heart was in the right place for my kids, but my approach (in the past) had left alot to be desired. I truly am working on that. I think my oldest boy would come to me ready but was more worried about what I thought about what he remembered, sad. We're headed in a much better direction as I see that that was NOT productive!

Thanks for the help, bookworm/Michelle, it is becoming clearer and clearer each day, yeah!

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
Claire
Member

I am always curious if I am doing narration right! Could you comment ... I'd really like the feedback!

Sample - 1. I read our History section, 2. They take turns telling me what I've read in as much detail as possible, 3. I don't correct them, (I let the youngest go first then the oldest), then we might openly talk about something in the reading in a discussion format if anyone wants to.

Between to the two of them, and usually from both, I get the reading back. Names are an issue! They will have the first letter and everything else in the reading but the major name. This doesn't happen as much with the 10 year old as with the 8 year old.

I've just now started to have the 10 year old write narrations which I keep, look over and ask her to "polish" (thanks for the cool word Christie) one narration one day a week. Should she polish all her written narrations each week? Do written narrations count for any other lesson in your days? Penmanship, composition or copywork?

I know the answer on copywork I think .... the purpose of it is to sharpen attention, spelling and grammar structures. Right? So regardless of the other writing during the day they should also separately be doing copywork? And this is an area where perfection is required? I'm still sharpening my Charlotte skills on sorting out all these things! Help me with your "how to" everyone!

Is it ok to have the younger one doing written narrations as his composition/penmanship? Writing has been a tough area and now that he is happily doing it and getting better and better I hate to discourage it. He also loves to follow closely in his sisters footsteps.

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
Bookworm
Member

Claire,

You may jot critical names down on a whiteboard before beginning.

I myself would find it tedious to "polish" seven narrations a week at ten years old. Not sure *I* would have the patience for that! Written narrations ARE your composition at this age. I myself prefer to use other material--lovely material, graceful in expression--as copywork, just for its exemplary quality. Copywork is handwriting practice in which you sneak in a little good exposure to good style. So there's no real CRITICAL reason for doing a selection from a book or poem or Scripture or quote instead of eight-year-old narration, EXCEPT in the fact that most eight-year-olds don't write anything like, say, E.B. White or the Psalmist or Kipling. I"d rather have the additional reinforcement of the beautiful writing, which my kids do NOT produce at this age. Beside the fact, since copywork is primarily for handwriting, and since it is HARD to get quick-moving thoughts down onto paper mechanically at this age, most children do NOT do their best handwriting when doing written narrations, especially at first. In fact my 11yo can be nearly illegible when trying to capture a written narration, lol. So I make him do copywork separately to work on that, and have him do a couple written narrations a week for composition practice. If there is an issue of what to do with the written narration, and especially if it is nearly illegible, I usually opt to have him type it, as this also gets in typing practice.

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post

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