Thanks for all of the responses!  This is great to think through...

Agreeing with pslively that I too am sorting this in my mind.  I have not studied classical very much and obviously I am still learning about CM, so please take this for what it is worth.  =)  I have never seen an educational plan laid out in actual scripture that is like one we are familiar with - Wouldn't that be great?? - but we have plenty of people's versions of what they have learned.  Obviously we all think our chosen method is the best - and it probably is for our individual families. However:

I think the need to defend CM with the Classical title comes from the pre-conceived notion that CM is tea parties and playing in fields every day and therefore is not of "real educational" benefit, and this is continually being brought out as a "CM education" with no additional studying of the philosophy and method.  Those of us using this method understand that is not true - it is rigorous and demanding - and we don't like being made to feel "less than" some one else.

When you mention classical, there is a vague sense of deep mysteries and hard work and shadowy images of really smart people like Socrates, Plato, and Hippocrates floating around in these ideas...so combining all that emotionally makes it seem deeper and more rigorous.  Especially when you consider the Sayer version of the trivium memorizing everything when the child is young (as opposed to letting children explore and make their own connections with the world around them) and on up.  Just the names of the stages of learning in the triuium sound impressive and cool.  In a conversation with "ordinary" people (read: not homeschooling outside the box people who are reading about it and researching it, lol) classical means a lot of "deep learning" about all those things that people did a long time ago that we hear about, but don't really understand very well.  So a Classical Education sounds impressive.  I had an experience with this the other day - I was talking with a lady who asked me what we were doing with school this year and mentioned that we were going to start Latin.  She was so amazed by that she just assumed that we were brilliant.  =)  That is what I think that most people associate with the idea of a classical education. ;)

To me, Charlotte Mason advocated a classical education when she reminded us, (implored us really), to make sure that children are exposed to beautiful, enriching ideas that broaden a person's mind, opening up new worlds to a child's thirsty, inquiring minds.  While many Ancients did not know God as taught today, their ideas and innovations are still at the very heart of so much of our world in terms of both beauty and education.  The very beautiful artwork, the beginings of the understanding of the sciences, mathematics, medicene and anatomy, the fascinating world of written language was recorded and refined, and are still of benefit to us today.  You can learn from them without rejecting Christ or your principles.  I very much suspect that is why Charlotte was so adament about us teaching scripture and how the Spirit works while encouraging us to teach these other things.  IF both are taught, children will be able to know what is truth and what is not because they will have the Biblical standards to measure with and the Spirit will teach them. So:

My personal idea is that I am teaching a Classical Education using the Charlotte Mason philosophy and methods by making sure that my children are exposed to beautiful, enriching ideas that open up new worlds to my children, while insuring that they are grounded in scripture.

Well, that's my goal, anyway.  =)

Honestly, for several years, I thought CM was basically unschooling or lots of unit studies.  The truth is that CM and those methods really have very little in common.  In fact, the more I've read and learned, those methods seem almost the antithesis of what a CM education is.   I think this is where the need to call CM "classical" comes in - kind of a knee-jerk response to that mistaken idea that I had and that many others have had.  I think of CM as taking all of the good things from the classical education model and making it God-honoring.  (I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me, but that's how I think of it.)  If I were pinned down into what our method of education is I would say Classical/CM just to give people of today's era a description that conveys a certain meaning.  I do use many of the so-called classical resources available today because they do seem to be based upon the same principles of CM.  I am very choosy and careful because I don't ever want to use resources that are not God-honoring or that are not based upon the supposition of my child being a whole creature who needs to be wholly educated.  

I do see some truth in the Dorothy Sayers classical education model and in the three stages of grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric.  I guess the difference for me would be that I want to be filling their grammar-stage brains with memories of big ideas, heroic people, and beautiful things, rather than filling them with lists of kings of England.  

My point in all this is that we need not reject everything that is called classical and we need not embrace everything that is called CM.  I, for one, love the Writing with Ease and Writing with Skills curricula from Susan Wise Bauer and I see nothing in them that is not in harmony with a CM education.  On the other hand, I really did not like using PLL or ILL which are considered to be one of the must-have's of a CM education.  

I hope nothing sounds offensive in this post.  If it does, it is not intentional and is not meant as a rebuttal to anything that has been previously said.  I'm really just trying to work out and articulate these things for myself more than for anyone else.  

Tukata, those are some really good questions. Personally, I think we can derive some principles about education from the Bible, but I don't think any one of our methods is the biblical one. I do think CM is pretty biblical (blogged on that here: http://lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com/2012/05/01/why-i-think-charlotte-masons-philosophy-is-biblical/ ). I am working on another post on what the Bible says about education but I need to think more on it.

I always wonder why we feel the need to defend CM by saying she is classical.

In the Middle Ages, classical ed was of course Christian. At least it was Christians doing it. But the roots are in pagan society so I think your question is a good one. Basically, the Greeks were a really educated, philosophical people (unlike the Romans or for that matter the Israelites) and so I think we (western society as a whole) admire that and want to learn from their playbook so to speak.

I think CM herself would say that the Holy Spirit is the giver of all wisdom even to those who don't acknowledge Him and so any knowledge the ancient Greeks had about education or anything else is God-given. So I don't think she would have had a problem with borrowing from and learning from them.

But I do think we need to keep in mind that they were pagan and cleary there was a lot they had wrong too. So it is worthwhile to examine what we take from them and ask if it is God-honoring and biblical or not.

Nebby

Nebby (and others too!) - I get a little squeamish when I read that classical is going back to the Middle Ages which then goes back to Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome...weren't they all based on pagan systems then?  Why as Christians are we going back to a pagan source for education?  (I'm not accusing anyone...I'm really asking)...Also, I haven't gotten to the Middle Ages in our hs yet (and I was ps myself) so I don't know much about the Middle Ages , but why would we want to emulate them? Anyway, I just got a "red flag" in my mind when I read this about classical education.  I do agree that CM is very biblical in her philosophy as already mentioned by many of you, and in reading her own writings (I've read Vol 1,2,3, and 6 in modern English). I'm just trying to sort this out in my mind - if she IS classical and if classical IS based on a pagan system, then what? 

IS there a "Biblical method" of education?  I read the Heart of Wisdom Teaching Approach and I did love a lot of it, but I am not convinced in her use of unit studies as being Biblical. 

Thoughts?  Please?

I skimmed this post and always find conversations on methods of eduation oh-so-interesting.  

I wanted to agree wholeheartedly with the fact that there simply is no substitution for CM's own words.  I haven't read NEAR what i'd like to of hers, but every time I do, I am met with God-centered, TRUE education.  My husband constantly speaks these words when the Trivium/Classical model is brought up. "To what end?"  Exactly.

What IS our goal?  What IS education?  What IS our philosophy?  With these questions answered, we can go much further than we ever thought possible with zero textbooks or curricula.  I have found, the hard way at times, that exploring the hows, whys and philosophies behind what we do is a much more worthwhile use of our time than perusing curriculum catalogs or websites.  

Just some extra thoughts I had!  Sorry if I'm reapeating what's already been said...the operative word here is "skimmed"...I SKIMMED the thread.  lol

Tukata,
I think a big part of the problem is that "classical" is used to cover a lot of things. Real classical education means the model used in the Middle Ages which in turn was supposed to be based on ancient Greek and Roman education. When people say CM was classical, they are comparing her to that Middle Ages method and form what I hear she had a lot in common with those thinkers.

But there is also the mdoern classical movement which came after CM (se she can't really be judged by it). It was revived with Dorothy Sayers and is best known through the Well-Trained Mind today. It also sought to revive what was going on in the Middle Ages but from what I can gather it also changed things or at least emphasized some aspects more than others. So I have heard it said that the 3-stage process of facts, logic, rhetoric which WTM is known for would not have been separated out like that into 3 distinct phases in the Middle Ages.

My post on (modern) classical ed is here:
http://lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/approaches-to-homeschooling-classical/

Nebby

I have been reading this thread with interest...

Does anyone have a definition of classical education?  I guess even with all of these posts, I can't get my head around what classical education IS if it is not the Well-Trained Mind, but the WTM is just an expression of it.  (I think that's the conclusion people were coming to?)  So, if CM is an expression of classical education, what IS classical education?  Or isn't there really a definition?

Thanks!

Veritas Press is also good for Classical from a Christian (reformed) perspective.  My friend's daughter takes many of their online classes, using their Omnibus program.  It's pretty rigorous.  As a 7th grader, she does school 5-10 hours per day. Gina

Thanks for all the info, Bookworm. I suppose part of the problem is that there are just not so many Christian homeschoolers in my part of the country so I probably hear less about what's out there. We are abounding in unschoolers though.

I will try to check out as much of the Christian clasical stuff as I can. I think thye need a post all to themselves in my "approaches to homeschooling" series.

Thanks again

Nebby

http://www.lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com

I'm sorry, binky, I called someone by your name, I was talking to "nebby" but the middle-aged circuits remembered "binky" instead, sorry!  Duh!  I still call my kids by the right names (MOST OF THE TIME

Bookworm,

I am laughing as I read your post. I agree not everyone uses WTM or SOTW. I have christian friends who do classical education who steer clear of both of these.

I actually used Memoria Press for a curriculum last year as well as being a part of a Classical Conversations community. I subscribe to Classical teacher and am thoroughly impressed with most of what I read in it. which actually led me to the purchase of the Latin Centered Curriculum and Climbing Parnassus back in the Spring. Nothing of which I have read made me question my beliefs or theirs. I have a link on my computer to the Bluedorns site and Christine Millers site. 

It is funny you should mention the Catholic options, please send them to me. We are a Catholic family but I am a convert.I tend to lean towards the Protestant curriculums just because that is what I am comfortable with but I was thinking today as I was out walking that maybe the SOTW would give a more balanced account of the Good and bad roles the Catholic church played in History as well as the people who were a part as well as a balanced look at the Reformation. It seems that a lot of the protestant ones only show the negative side of the Catholic Church( it is my understanding that wise bauer is Catholic please correct me if I am wrong). I am actually surprised at the number of large Christian curriculums that use SOTW as their spine for History so it must not be horrible. I'd also like to mention for Catholic CMer's the Mater Amabilis website. http://materamabilis.org/ma/ I was planning on using SCM w/ TQ this year but may look at how SOTW might play a role.

Thank you for your comments. I still definitely love CM!! And I would love to be a nerd at your house! My kids actually think it is bad to be a nerd because society says if your smart your weird. It's really too bad, isn't it?

Binky

Binky, I know of lots of classical homeschoolers who do not use WTM.  There ARE explicitly Christian classical resources.  Here are my favorites:

Christine Miller, of All Through the Ages fame, has had a plan up that has influenced me since I began homeschooling:

http://www.classical-homeschooling.org/

The Bluedorn family has written a book, Teaching the Trivium, in which they claim the three "stages" are in fact the Biblical stages of knowledge, wisdom and understanding.  I recommend this if you are interested in the subject.  Again, it influenced me far more than WTM.  Here is their site:

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/ 

You may also want to check into the writings of Andrew Kern, Tracy Lee Simmons, and Andrew Campbell.  Specifically The Latin Centered Curriculum, Climbing Parnassus, and check out the CiRCE Institute.  http://www.circeinstitute.org ;

Last but certainly not least, there is Martin Cothran at Memoria Press.  He publishes the Classical Teacher which is part newsletter, part catalog.  You haven't really dipped your toes into Christian classical unless you've read him.  He is specifically Christian in his understanding of classical education.  http://www.memoriapress.com

The classical education world is actually a pretty big one; I haven't even touched on specifically Catholic resources yet.  I can dump those on you too if you are interested. 

Michelle D

Binky,
I think Charlotte Mason's views are the most biblical I have found which is why I am here. But I would not say that there is one biblical way to go. God just doesn't give us that many specifics on method.
I think the most important things to have a biblical approach are to have a right view of children and human nature (image of God verses sinful human beings; children as complete people) and to have the right goals (knowledge of God and holiness before academics and worldly success, but also wisdom as a gift from God to be used in His service).

I don't think I have ever met a classical educator, Christian or otherwsie, who uses anything other than the Well-trained Mind. This disturbs me as I don't find the WTM very biblical or Christian. If there are other specifically Christian classical resources out there, I would love to know about them.
Nebby
http://www.lettersfromnebby.wordpress.com

Nebby,
I agree with you that there is not much out there comparing the methods, I believe that is probably why we both came upon this lady's article. But as I read her article and researched more about her philosophy it made me question her stand on education in general.

I was using " classical ed" for my children this past year and was not completely satisfied which is why I was researching. I have some wonderfully Christian friends who use christian classical ed and love it and the ones who do "CM" use sonlight. I do not know anybody using true CM. I wish I did but I feel that this forum helps fulfill that void. I really wish I knew what method is really the method that God designed for our kids to learn by but I feel that as a Christian that as long as I teach my kids to "seek first the Kingdom of God" that maybe that is all that matters and method is irrelevant. Maybe God handles the rest. Maybe each family chooses what is "best" for their family. I was listening to a talk one day by the author of MFW and he said that the Hebrews taught reading for the sole purpose of being able to read and study God's word. It really made me stop and think ,as you stated in your blog, why am I educating.

To get off topic a little, I have been looking at and researching the older educational styles put out by dollar home store called eclectic educational series(including the McGuffeys series, Rays math, Thalheimers history, etc.) where most everything is taught from a Christian perspective before the time of the John Dewey public school era. Very interesting learning style. I think some of it may be outdated due to technological advances but maybe not. I think our brains are going dead from too much technology:) I am considering buying there sources just to read through the material to see what I think of it as an educational style. As much as I would love to take my kids back in time I don't know how it would resonate with them.

Thank you, Nebby, for your thoughts and comments. I am new on this journey and still trying to find my way with God's help and guidance!

Binky